Miles & Mountains
Join Nick, a social worker and coach by day, as he unravels the inspiring stories of athletes and the public, uncovering the motivations behind their actions, from conquering mountains to participating in ultra-endurance races and competing in rodeos. Get ready for heartwarming tales of community support, acts of kindness, and the revelation that everyone has a deeper story to tell. Whether it's running, climbing, or participating in rodeos, these stories will inspire and uplift. #Running, #Climbing, #EverydayAthletes, #Rodeo
Miles & Mountains
Orange Mud CEO & Founder Josh Sprague
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We sit down with Josh Sprague, founder of Orange Mud and Seven Clay, to unpack the hard pivot from jack-of-all-trades operator to disciplined builder. He shares how a simple birthday joke at his office turned into a serious wake-up call, and why implementing EOS, org charts, and SOPs let him stop being the bottleneck without lowering standards.
From there we go deep on the craft behind endurance gear. Josh explains the biomechanics that drive a truly stable hydration pack, why stability prevents chafing, and how fabric choices, breathable spacer mesh, ripstop nylon, and YKK zippers add up to durability you can trust for long trail runs, ultramarathons, gravel rides, and adventure races. He also tells the unfiltered startup story: ugly early prototypes, the mystery of tech packs, factories that will not call you back, and how one good connection can change everything.
We also tackle the complicated economics of “Made in USA” versus overseas production, plus the exact kind of frustration that sparks new companies. When local shops could not deliver quality embroidery, Josh built Seven Clay and scaled it nationwide. If you care about product design, manufacturing, small business scaling, customer feedback loops, and endurance performance, this conversation delivers real decisions, not vague motivation. Subscribe, share this with a founder or athlete friend, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway: where are you still being the “fixer” in your own life?
Website:
https://www.orangemud.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorJsXpTkD5q-ZFa8rT3EU-qgw4jKNmhh79Eo2LUkrk3otAxOc5R
Instagram:
@orangemud
https://www.instagram.com/orangemud?igsh=eXhiNWxyZXVvazI1
@sevenclay
https://www.instagram.com/sevenclay?igsh=eGNoYzIzY2NrZmIw
Shoutout to:
Josh Sprague
The Sprague Family
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Raising Awareness:
Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women (MMIW)
Mental Health
Intro And The Multi-Tool Problem
SPEAKER_01Josh Craig, how are you, man? I'm ready to rock. How about yourself? Doing pretty good. It's a little early for me, but we can do this. A lot of people know I can I can do it under pressure.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, I I feel like you're ready to rally.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're Jack of all trades, master of a lot of people say none, but I think all, right? Would you say or would you say none, as as my friends would say?
SPEAKER_00I've always said none, really, but but ultimately over the years I've I've learned that because I like to do so many different things, eventually I got to be pretty good at quite a few of them, but I still have plenty that I'm master of very little. But yeah, yeah, it I think Jack of All Trades actually it's you know, funny segue. You know, a few years ago when I went to my office, and actually coming up, my birthday is coming up in a few days, and and every year we have for everybody's birthday, we have a birthday lunch. And and when I went in, I knew that I was having a little bit of a tricky time scaling, you know, both businesses at the time that I had everything I still have. And when I went in that day, everybody had like, you know, Josh was here, he's the MacGyver, he's the multi-tool, he's the jack of all trades, he's the whatever. And and when I when I saw that on the shirts, I realized how I was failing in my business because I I was the jack of all trades and I was the problem solver for everybody. And and I I instantly, I of course very thankful everybody did that, and I thought it was really you know special, but I instantly changed my ways of running business. And and I was like, I'm I'm I need to be a specialist and I need to get away from being the jack of all trades. I get sucked into it all the time because I love it. But but that being said, I implemented EOS in my business. Like within three months, we were live and everybody was trained, org charts, SOPs, and and I quit going to the office and like cold turkey, man. Just like the next day I quit. And I was just like, I'm not doing it, I'm not gonna be the guy that everybody needs every day. And I was like, I had a lot of good people, and I stopped. So yeah, it's it's a it's a funny thing, but especially coming on my birthday and thinking back, it was three years ago and we did it, and it's been a transformational change with stepping away from being the jack of all trades, which I think a lot of business owners get sucked down that rabbit hole doing and probably don't get out, you know. But yeah, but I still am obviously like my kids there, like my son, he's got a Sur on, he's been working on his bike and he constantly breaks stuff, and you know, because he thinks he knows what he's doing. And so I go out there and I fix his problems. So that's almost yeah. So it's so it's kind of a fun thing, you know. I I'm proud of it by all means, but but you know, I think it's a blessing and a curse that sometimes, you know, those of us that just have that mentality that we can figure out anything, you end up getting sucked down rabbit holes of you know, trying to to be good at everything. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, you got the the extensive resume. I mean, your ultra Iron Man, mountain biking. I mean, it it I where where would you want to? Yeah, do you still do that? Do you still focus on that? Or was that in your your earlier days?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, uh, yeah, like Iron Man, I I don't have a lot of desire to do an Iron Man again. And um, you know, I've done two, two fulls, two halves, you know, I ran a bunch of marathons and you know, tons of trail races, ultra races, mountain bike races, carbon bike races, and yeah, adventure races, and probably things I forgot, but I I do still, yeah, I still mountain bike. I still and and I, you know, do some mountain bike races, but I've done hundreds and I've kind of I've done a point, I've hit a point where I've done a lot that I wanted to do event-wise. There's only a handful of mountain bike races that I still want to do that I haven't done. And and gravel bike races I've done a ton, and same thing. I've done so many of them that that I as much as I greatly appreciate all the organizers and all the events, and I love to hang out with all the people. I I uh during COVID, I kind of pivoted pivoted from you know, race, race, race, like so many people were, and I pivoted into just enjoying myself and going out and going for rides. And and I I what really ruined everything for me was a race that I'm extremely you know happy about or proud of. I I love what they built. It's a grassroots race, it costs nothing called the Cannonball 550. It's a 550-mile bike race, gravel bike race. And two buddies of mine, they were like, hey, we're gonna film a documentary in this and of us doing this. Would you would you be willing to donate a couple packs to us? I'm like, Yeah, sure. That'd be great. And I was like, what is this exactly? And they're like, Yeah, it's a 550-mile gravel bike race, completely self-supported. You know, you get nutrition from gas stations and everything. And and and I was like, Well, when is it? And they're like, it's in 10 days. And I was like, oh, that sounds great. You mind if I join you? And they're like, Yeah, sure, come on up. And and so I went up on a whim and did a 550-mile bike race. Took three days and I think eight hours, and and just thoroughly enjoyed that I wasn't racing against really anybody, you know. I mean, of course you are in an event like that, but I didn't look at it that way. It's only you can only, when you're going for that long, you're literally racing against your own best self. That's just it. And however you finish, it's how you finish. But after I did that, I I had so much fun at just taking in nature for what it is and not being in the in the the hamster wheel of of a race, per se, you know, bigger race. And and I just fell in love with it. And I was like, this is what it should be. And so now, like I said, I I do feel bad because you know, I I know I maybe even as a you know, as a founder, I feel kind of weird because a lot of people, you know, I built all this stuff and I've advertised, yeah, it's great for your race, great for everything. But it's it all still boils down to training, right? So that's where to me it's is where it's fun, and it doesn't have to be about a race. You know, you don't need to have a race to have a purpose. But you know, for me, that purpose was always a race because it made me afraid, and and I needed to be afraid in order to train, in order to be at the fitness I wanted to be at. But now I don't. I've gotten older and I'm like, you know what? I just want to ride because I want to ride. Or if I want to do you know push-ups, I'm just gonna do push-ups. And so it's weird how how things shift. So yeah, I I still I still race. I I've gotten back into adventure racing, which is is really what started a lot of you know, the orange mud side of things, and is kind of early in my background. And I've got back into that. I've done a 12 and a 24 hour this year, and and I would love to do, you know, maybe three of those a year. Nothing crazy, but just enough to still kick ass and have a good time and and you know, show I can still throw down.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, remind remind you of the days that you know you can throw down and still can. So yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you know, just going out and just hammering just to go
Training Without Needing A Race
SPEAKER_00like I don't want to go run on the road. I I'm all dirt. That's if it's dirt, it's me. So yeah, that's my gym.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So you you brought up the pack, or orange mud, that's what you're talking about, correct? You're the founder of Orange Mud. Can you t tell us about how it came around, why, and man, yeah, you the comp the competition, there's a lot of it. You know, I'll talk to you about that because when when I you know went on social media, looked you up, my algorithm is all orange mud. Right. And and and like and all the competition. Yeah, yeah, but but the the ads are weird on Instagram now. It's like it's not like one page, it's just ad. And then when I click on your you click, you know, to the next one, it's ultimate uh direction. And it's like Nathan, I'm like, oh my gosh. So thank you for that. Yeah, sorry. So it's no no, so please, I've heard of you, and I'm glad you're on. And I would would like for the the backstory on why and how, and I mean, yeah, if you don't mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. No, yeah. So I I I started Orange Mud in in January of 2012, and it's because I I hated waste packs, I hated handhelds, and I hated most of the backpacks on the market at the time, and well, all of them. And when it came to to running and like cycling, you can have a pack that maybe doesn't fit all that great. And for the most part, unless you're racing, it's probably gonna be fine, you know. But a lot of them were hot, not breathable, they moved around, they would rub the crap out of you. And and at the time, I you know, I mean, I I had competed in almost everything by when I started this business. And and I, for years adventure racing, I had a lot of time. You always race with the team, and and I had a lot of time running for hours, days, you staring at my teammates' backs. And I noticed how my my teammates' backs moved. And your back's basically divided in three compartments. You have your top, middle, and your bottom, right? And in the in its biggest simplistic form. And and your upper back doesn't hardly move, it's really stationary. And and your your hips, they really they they go in almost a circle and or figure eight. And so it's why anything that's down too low in your body ends up moving a lot. And in the middle of your your your back, you have you know the bottom of your lung expansion and contraction, and it's a big taper, and it's hard to mess or hard to design around. But again, the upper body doesn't do all that. So I always thought, man, if I could just build a pack that just stayed up high. And and especially at the time, I was mostly focused on the first design on marathon and Iron Man. It's a water bottle-based design, goes behind your back, it's easy to reach, and you carry your backup nutrition. So in a in a marathon or in an Iron Man when you're when you're on the run section, you come into an aid station. A lot of times people are drinking from Dixie cups, or you know, they they throw out their their nutrition strategy and they're just drinking water. I'm like, okay, you're gonna you're gonna train meticulously for all this time. Then you're gonna go do a marathon or Iron Man, you're gonna drink water or whatever Gatorade they have on course with some nutrition that you're not comfortable with. And it's why people throw up and cramp and everything. And I just wanted to have my own tool. So so I built this itty bitty pack called the Hydraquibriber, and we still have it 14 years later as one of our top products. And it holds a 24-ounce water bottle, it's got a couple shoulder pockets for gels, electrolytes, backup nutrition, and then in the back, there's a little bit of storage for your phone, some cash for the beer garden afterwards, and and your car case. You know, that's it. It's just designed to be simple, but it's not going to squeeze your waist like a waistbelt, which causes GI distress for a lot of people. And and a lot of the waistbelts moved anyway, because again, it's in a bad spot. It's going counterintuitive to your body, and you don't have to use a handheld weight, you know, like a lot of people do with handhelds. And and yeah, so it's just a simplistic form. And so I started it in in the development in January 2012, launched in October at the Soma Half Iron Man, and then the the Tempe Iron Man the very next month. And and most of the people buying it were triathletes, of course, but but they were most importantly ultra runners, and almost all of them are like, yeah, you know, I train for tries, but I just do this for fun. I'm actually an ultra runner. And I was like, Well, how are you gonna run a hundred miles with this little pack? And and at the time I had done ultra distances, but I'd never done it as an ultra run. You know, these were always adventure race, you know, distances and disciplines that I was doing. And so I didn't know that they had so many aid stations. And so I I quickly was like, Well, this is great because I have always loved dirt. I mean, it's something that I did this because I hated running and I wanted a way to make running easier for me because I run all the time. It doesn't make any sense, but I do. And so that's what kind of led down this whole path of orange mud and the pay the pavement space, but again, the the quick you know jump to dirt, and then it just took off from there and mountain bike and gravel and everything else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How how do you know to get things started though? I mean, that that I think a lot of people have problems doing that. Like they come up with the ideas, you know, like when I'm out in the mountains or you know, on the trail and everything else, I'm like, man, you know what? I'm done holding this, you know, yeah, uh, this bottle. And I'm like, how how do I get around from, you know, how do I do that? So when did you know you had that that that capability to, you know, come up with the idea and have manufacturers build it for you?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, I I didn't know how to do it. So I I did destroy a gun holster, uh fanny pack, ratchet strap from the back of my truck, and I took a hotel sewing room kit and I sewed it together and I built my first prototype. And then once I had that, I was like, all right, how hard can this be? I I spent, was it 13, 14 years in the manufacturing space in running a big machine shop basically that specialized in semiconductor, DOD, you know, medical device. And and uh so I mean I have helped engineers
Orange Mud And Better Hydration Packs
SPEAKER_00build bazillions of widgets over the years. And I mean, I had 170 people working for me, and you know, we we were a big operation. And and when it comes to building things, I mean that's I I've I've sourced so many things and and I I get how to build things. It's always something I've been really good at is building things. Yeah, and so I figured how hard can it be? But it's actually really hard because it's yeah, it's it's totally different. And I, you know, I I remember reaching out to all the different factories and I was like, hey, what what do you want? You want solid solid works, you want a pro e? You want a 3D model? What are you looking for? And they're like, I don't even know what you're talking about. We just use paper patterns. I was like, oh wow, really? Like that's that's behind in this world. Okay, that's fun. So it it took a bit to figure that out and figure out like, all right, well, first, how do I get a tech pack, is what you call it in this industry. And in my side, it was, you know, brute blueprint or you know, whatever cat. But but you need a tech pack, which basically spells out here's the materials, here's what it's gonna look like, here's the dimensions, here's the you know, the cut patterns and everything. And then you need to get that to the factory, and then they're gonna build your prototype. But without a tech pack, no one would take me serious. And so it's where my biggest struggle was. But I didn't know that. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I'm reaching out to I think it was like 42 or 43 different factories, and I only had two respond to me, if I remember right. One guy was like, No, not interested. You're gonna go to China, and he hung up on me. And then the other guy was like, Do you have a tech pack? I was like, No, he's like, We're not interested. I was like, Okay, I couldn't get a hold of anybody else, like no one answered the phone. This industry is terrible when it comes to SEO, so they're really hard to search and find anybody. And even the fabric people are terrible still to this day. And and so if you don't have that inside scoop, it's hard to get anywhere. So I just got a lucky break through a sales guy that used to work for me in my defense business. And he he was like, Hey, uh Sprague, he's like, I heard you're working on this this backpack, man. He's like, Have you found anybody to build it? I know a guy that that's what he does is he builds prototypes. And I was like, Really? You're my best buddy, man. And and that guy is is is is the guy that really helped me, uh, this guy, Mike, to get things dialed in. And and it's where it got the ground floor going because he had the connections where he said, Hey, factory and Anaheim, you should work with Josh. And and without that, I never even found these guys. And here I'm searching all over, I couldn't find them. And they were 40 minutes from me. But but that was really the the framework to get everything moving forward. And he introduced me, he's like, hey, those guys are just kind of okay. This is a factor you actually want to go with, but you need to be moving more volume before that guy will ever talk to you. And he's like, if he actually gives you the opportunity to build your stuff, you need to treat him, you know, with care. I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, I'm paying these people, but yeah, you'll find the industry in the US is was was really kind of fickle with doing made America and whatnot. But uh, but yeah, it it it was a slow go to get things going, but you know, just a relentless pursuit of trying to get people to help. And I finally finally got there, but it was certainly wasn't easy.
Prototypes Tech Packs And Factories
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know some people that you know can't even do USA, they have to go to China, and so they're making trips back and forth. I'm like, I don't know how you guys do that, you know, and but they they do it, so that's why I asked the question. So you said you said Anaheim? Yeah, and that's where you got the help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, Anaheim, and we it was really all over SoCal is where we initially started. The first three years I did All Made America, and that was my whole goal is staying American made. Yeah, and you know, I found that no one really cared. I had a giant brand that was looking at bringing in one of my products. And the when I had the call with the VP, he told me, he's like, Josh, he's like, Look, you're naive and an idiot if you think anyone cares. And I was like, You're a prick, is what I wanted to say. I didn't, but it it it did hit home, and I thought about it more afterwards because I didn't have the margin that they needed because I was making it in the United States, and and I lost that business and and I burned that opportunity, sadly. And and I, you know, because I tried coming back years later, but I just couldn't ever get up through the chain to get there. And and it, but it's something that that stuck with me because as I was scaling, I was finding we were having people reaching out from all around the world wanting to distribute our products, but I didn't have the margin room for it. You have to have margin room for shipping duties, tariffs that all these other countries around the world are gonna have to pay. You have to have margin room for wholesale, and I didn't have a channel for it, I didn't have a way to scale. So, you know, a lot of people, you know, I I love made America. I mean, with my other seven clay business, everything almost everything we do is here. I'm very proud of that. But that being said, there's certain things you just can't do. It's not economically feasible. And you can either have a successful business or you can fail. Yeah, and you know, so I did get kind of you know obscured by some people, not very many, surprisingly, but some people are like, ah, shame on you, you built this as American made. I'm like, I did, but I was going to fail. And because ultimately everybody wants a discount, everybody wants it on sale. The I'm I'm going against a market that is all import. And I would have been the guy that is doing a brand American made. I'm like, will you pay? And I I'd ask people that we they would give me a hard, hard time. And honestly, most most people that that would email in or message on social and kind of you know be a little bit rude about it. Normally, once I push back and I explained things, they were like, I get it now. Sorry about that. I mean, they were cool, at least they appreciated that I got back to them, but but but it was something I I I genuinely felt bad about, but I wanted I genuinely wanted people to understand that look, you know, if I'm competing against a hundred to hundred and fifty dollar price point, and that's that's the market, will you pay $250? And they're like, no. I'm like, okay. Well, why, why should why I mean, why would I do this? I mean, for what reason? I can go overseas and I can get a better product. I can have access to bigger development labs, I can access direct to factory. Over here, I'm paying a whole bunch of upgrades. You know, I'm paying duties to tariffs and shipping and import, all these extra expenses on fabrics and all the hardware and everything that has to come in and then get distributed around here. There's a lot of extra waste in that process. Even if you want to look at it from a green perspective, it's more green to build it direct in the actual country. Less shipping transport, less gas, CO2 emissions. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of pieces about it, but it's something that that I did personally struggle with, you know, for a year of making that decision. I knew it was coming. And then even once I went down that path, I did feel like a bit of a cheat, I guess if you will. But but it it it wasn't it wasn't like that at all. It was like success or failure, which one am I gonna do? I I I can't sell these packs for $500 each, which is what they would be at now if I stayed in America.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So so you're out of America now.
SPEAKER_00I still produce some here, but not very much. It's like five percent, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Now, those people that disliked you being in America, are they with you now and buying your it's hardly ever a question.
SPEAKER_00You know, I mean, it's it's something that you know, it's you just you just have to look at it. I wouldn't be here today. I I don't believe I'd be here as a business if we if we stayed domestic, sadly. The the expense I tell everybody, I'm like, okay, well, what most people don't understand is that most of your textile goods are sown in California and New York. We're the two most expensive places to produce anything, California and New York. And and so unfortunately, the the uh the business is just not a an ideal place to to build them. And then if I'm being honest, and and this is is where the other side of it is, is that there's a giant piece of that industry that are that are they have illegals working there anyway. So am I technically made in America? I mean, yeah, on US soil, but I'm I I'm most likely am paying a factory that is paying illegal labor to do their to do the work anyway. So, you know, why shouldn't I just go to Mexico? And and we did do a brief hybrid of Calexico manufacturing there for a bit, and but it was something that you know there was just more problems. So it yeah, it it's a really it's a crazy thing when it comes to dying on your sword of, you know, do I do made America or not? And and it's just something where I was like, I can employ employ more Americans to work for me and help grow the business and make a better product if I go overseas. So why not do that versus staying teeny and finding the 125 people a year that are going to buy American made and pay double what the market goes for. And so yeah, that it's it's a wild one, but I I could go on for hours about that stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, yeah, so so can I, but those those people that that complained about being made in America are the probably the same people who buy speedlands who which are $300 juice, you know. And it's just like, all right, you know, they just they just want an easy, you know, you know, just spend less for this. But but then when it comes to other things, they're like, all right, high dollar, you know.
SPEAKER_00So well, and and I would argue that most. Those people probably aren't even buying died dollar shoes or whatever. It's we we see it in the seven clay
Made In USA Versus Scaling
SPEAKER_00business frequently where somebody messages like, Oh, I see you're just embroidering on these cheap China crap, you know, hats or whatever. I'm like, okay. I'm like, you want America made cap? Sure, I'll sell them to you. And and then I price them like American made cap, $30. You know, we're embroidering it at our shop, but yes, it's an American-made cap. And you know, it's made from imported fabrics, but whatever, I guess that doesn't matter. But but yeah, it's gonna be $30 each if you want to buy 50 of them. And or we can build one for between $10 and $16 each. And they're like, oh, that's a ripoff. I'm like, well, you said you wanted American made. And like, well, I'm not gonna pay that much. I'm like, well, do you do your beliefs change? I mean, it's it's it's all I I actually enjoy the conversation because I I you know I I don't ever say it mean, but it's more of like, here's the reality. You know, you've got somebody that makes burdened, you know, $20 to $30 an hour sewing this in the United States, doing something that is not a common enterprise. So there's very few people that do it. And the ones that are generally are only supporting the medical device and defense. Or you have you know factories here in the United States that are that are sourcing overseas and they're building in giant factories that's automated, it's efficient, and you can get you know more marketing messages out there, and it's still a fantastic product. So, you know, it's it's it's it is a fickle thing, but it it's neat to have having both businesses because I I get to see it time and time
Seven Clay And Building For Quality
SPEAKER_00again.
SPEAKER_01So, what came first, Seven Clay or Orange Mud?
SPEAKER_00No, Orange Mud came first uh 14 years ago, and then Seven Clay will be around seven years as of September this this year.
SPEAKER_01Okay, what what's out of the okay, hydration born out of frustration? That was just out of you, but seven clay, how did uh seven clay come about? Were you were you were you at frustrated too out of orange mud and or how?
SPEAKER_00I was, yeah. I I uh so we have we have this product for Orange Mud called the transition wrap. Yeah, it's a changing talent seat cover and and integrated into one and and and we've customized, I don't know, probably a million of them at this point. I don't even know, but lots. And and so over the years, you know, we've customized for stores and teams and brands and whatever, and and we embroider them mostly. And when we moved our business to Texas in June of 19, I I would have never thought I'd have a hard time finding somebody to do my embroidery work. And down here, I reached out to numerous shops. Most people wouldn't call me back. The few that would treat me like I was a grandmother coming in with a single blanket to get you know 20-inch wide embroidery, and they they priced it at prices that were insane. And and and I was like, What are you doing? I'm like, I'm a wholesale client, I'm bringing you volume consistently, year-wrapped, you know, outsourcing six figures. And I'd be a dream client to me. I wish people came like orange mud to me. And so I did do that. So I out of frustration, I started a business simply to hurt the local competitors because I hated them. I I couldn't believe that I couldn't just pay somebody to do my work. And I tell people all the time, like, man, if you came to me with the weirdest job, like, hey, I need to have portable toilets cleaned, and I and I'm currently paying a quarter million dollars a year, but I can't find anybody good. I'm like, I probably start you're giving you give me a quarter million dollars a year, I'll start a business for you to do that, you know. But I so that's what I did with Orange with Seven Clay. I was like, well, fine, I need it for my own products, and I'm gonna go after these guys. And and we did. So we I spent 58 grand on the first machine and then 80 on the next two, and and then it just kept going from there. Because embroidery led to, hey, do you do screen printing? Hey, do you do laser etching? Hey, do you do leather patches? Do you do custom cut and sew? And and so now it's evolved to this whole whole beast. And you know, we do all sorts of stuff. So we we build brands, but we do, you know, like right now, we're doing a custom device, medical device application, cut and sew project, and because we have all kinds of sewing machines that I had the orange mud side, but now I have a ton more. And so yeah, it's it's been a wild ride, but it's it's now bigger than Orange Mud. It passed it, I think, by year three. And it's just, you know, it's it's uh it's a wild business. You know, I didn't have that goal. I I genuinely did it mostly for me for Orange Mud. And and but I wanted to just I wanted to show the industry that it's not hard to do a good job. And and that's where most of them, the shops I'd out, all the shops I'd outsource too, they they literally told me countless times, you don't understand. And you know, when I was like, well, how come you can't trim these threads? And yeah, how come you can't have that logo look more dense? And they're like, you don't understand, Josh. I'm like, well, enlighten me. And then they tell me you just don't understand it. And we were better than anyone I'd ever outsourced to within 48 hours. And once once I saw that, and it was simply because we tried, and because I told my digitizer, I ever, you know, I I've never done digitizing in-house or like basic things, but I I pay a guy to do it for me, and and because I was like, again, find the expert, right? And so I went to the best straight out of the gate, and I'm like, hey, I don't care if it runs longer, I want it to be perfect. And he's like, Well, it's gonna run like a minute and a half longer. I'm like, it takes me five minutes to run those machines or load the machines. I'm like, if it goes from two minutes to three minutes, I'm like, this is fine, or whatever it was. Yeah, and and we took a logo that we had outsourced numerous times, and I mean, like probably 30,000 times that we that we have ran this product with OP vendors, and and we were better literally within 48 hours. And sure, we bought brand new machines, so that probably helped, but it wasn't that we just tried. That was it. We just we just slowed things down, and then we've maintained that same you know mentality ever since.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Embroidery is is really difficult to get. It seemed like you know, you got you had a gatekeeper, and you know, people tick you off, you end up taking off. So it's like it's like a blessing in disguise. Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's fun. Yeah, I mean, I I like learning learning new things. And you know, I've been fortunate to hire some really good people to where to where you know they they're just as psycho as I am with attention to detail. And and I mean, I usually wake up to a message from my embroidery manager, like, hey, what do you think of this? You think we should do this, or you know, you think we should change this? And and I'm like, Man, you know, it's fine. But you know, she's super picky, which is great, it's what I want, you know.
SPEAKER_01Do you do you stick local or do you go throughout the whole the entire US and the world?
SPEAKER_00Yeah with we do nationwide. Yeah, we don't we we've done a little export, but not very much. It's mostly all nationwide. But yeah, we we for sure for sure do nationwide. You know, what ended up really happening is you know, when when COVID happened, which was four months after I started Seven Clay, you know, we were doing, we were killing it. We were growing in the racing, a lot of you know, run races, cycling races, making merch for them. And then all of a sudden, with all the races stopping, and then orange mud sales just halted briefly until everybody decided they were gonna work out, until they decided they're gonna get back into not working out. Yeah, the industry was funny with COVID, but but but yeah, all of a sudden we had to pivot and we had to we we flipped the switch and went nationwide and and flipped the switch on Facebook ads and Google ads and and and we just started growing in all these different pieces. And we we just like with Orange Mud, I didn't know what I was doing in the beginning, admittedly. And and but I I I I've always had the focus on it, it should be done right. And like that's just the way we always do things. And yeah, and so with that, we started learning who our customer is. And it wasn't just like a certain industry, like we do a ton of work in the roofing space. We do work with tons of roofing brands, and the roofing industry is the only industry I've ever made a commercial for just for them, because roofers largely are meticulous when it comes to attention to detail. And they love that about us because that's the way we are. So we we really realize, oh, that's a good space. If you just want a cheap nine dollar hat, sure, go find somebody cheap on the internet. It'll probably look cheap, maybe not, but probably, but we're that's not our that's not who we who we go after. We want people to actually care about quality and and and and we'll pay a slight premium. And it's not like we charge a lot more, but but but it's that's how we we really learned who we were is by using a much larger sample than just the local Austin market. But yeah, we of course do a ton of local stuff, but uh it's neat to be to be nationwide, and you just you get more exposure, you get more more challenges, and we think we always have some two challenge, so it's it's a good time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
Designing For Stability And Durability
SPEAKER_01Now, you know, with the product and everything else, orange mud, the fabric, high quality fabric, yeah, and everything else, because that I'm a stickler to that. And and if if if it feels stiff and scratchy, I I can't do it. Yeah. So with orange mud, how do you guys uh how are you guys different from the competitors?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Well, one of the big ones is first our focus is has always been stability, and that's that's quality and stability are the number one important factors that I always focus on. Because if you can't stabilize the fluids and the whatever you're carrying in your backpack, then the backpack fails, right? So the first step is really stability. And with a stable platform, you're not going to have rubbing, you're not gonna have movement. If you don't have movement, you don't have rubbing, you don't have chafing, you're a happier person. And then, yeah, second is where the fabrics come into play. And and yeah, the fabrics are something I'm I'm I'm very, very nervous about changing because we have learned over time what fabrics work. And and like my fabric that makes contact with the human body is one that I have not changed since I found it. And and I and what I found when I I build prototypes, you know, I I often will test a product. It takes me usually about 10 months to get a product figured out. And what'll happen is I'll work on, I'll be able to I build the prototypes myself, and then and then once I get them to where the fit and function, everything is perfect. Then I I push them. And I found that you generally have to run at least three hours before you find what is going to go wrong in a pack. And because there's some packs I built where I'm like, this thing's awesome. One pack I worked on, it took me two years. And I I stopped 16 months in because I found it was awesome up until about three hours. But about three hours in, I started feeling this kind of weird point somewhere on my shoulder. And I didn't like how that worked. And I had to totally scrap the pack and start over, like 100% from scratch. And it once I went back to it, and I took a few months off from working on it because I was so frustrated. I wanted this, it was my two-liter bladder pack that ended up becoming my endurance pack. But the initial versions were an entirely different version, and and they were beautiful, they looked cool, they had all kinds of cool features, and and it, and I I it just that that project really hurt just trying to figure it out. But but again, it it I always find it takes a few hours to to really determine whether that pack is going to work or not. And so that's kind of the first piece with testing them fabrics because you'll it it's fit and fabric that'll tell you if it's going to be stable, if it's going to be comfortable. It's got to be breathable, of course. So it's like the spacer mesh that we use that makes contact with the human body, it is, it doesn't stretch. Like we're one of the very few brands that doesn't use stretchy material everywhere. I have one pack that does use quite a bit of stretchy material, but even so on the back panel, I use a spacer mesh that barely has any stretch because you need to constrain something if you want to constrain the fluid. And so that's the first step right out of the gate, where our fabrics, of course, are super soft, but but we I mix in what's stretchy with what's what is not for stability. And then and then of course, on top of that, it comes down to durability. What's going to last? And I I don't want anybody to reach out and say your pack failed in a gear. Like that would be a 100% failure to me, no matter how much you use it. You should never be able to kill one of my packs for a very long period of time. So that's the other piece where anything that I use, like my what we call our power mesh on the outside of the pack, that is the the start, the stretchy stuff that you're that's going to hold your phone, your bladder, and all your other stuff, your essentials. And and that needs to hold up to a lot of wear and tear. And so a lot of brands go super light, and I'll just go scoche heavier just because it'll actually last. And then nylon is is you know the the bones of many of these packs. And and same thing. A lot of people use a 70-weight nylon, which you can, you know, butterfly almost can tear it, but yet a 400 denier, occasionally I'll use 200 in certain applications that are non-load bearing, and and that also makes it durable to where it's actually going to last a long time. And it's rip stop too. So, you know, you can theory of rip stop is that it's a square and you could cut it and it would isolate to the square. It's not 100% true in all reality, but yeah, but that's the theory, and it is better than a standard nylon that can rip straight through. So so yeah, those are really the three base components that that I focused everything on. And and of course, zippers is the other one I always you know focus on YKK. I've never used anything besides YKK Japanese zippers and all of my designs because they don't fail as opposed to a lot of the junk
Vests Safety And Customer Feedback
SPEAKER_00imports that will.
SPEAKER_01So gotcha.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I've been in the business, not business, but the ultras, the running, mountaineering, and everything else. And one thing that I cannot, I cannot get into are the vest packs, man. The vest, vests. I can't, I can't, I can't do it. People live and die vests. Why would I want something another shirt on me? Why why would I want another something around me? Yeah, I I just don't get it. So why like when did you when did you see that come in place? I I've noticed that like right before I I think right a couple years before COVID, the vest start coming. Because before it was just a hydration pack. That's what I fell in love with. That's what I use because there's hardly anything, you know. You don't have to deal with too much. It's just a hydration pack on your back, right? And then a strap on the bottom and it it it was it's legit. Now people are bringing a vest with little bladders. I'm like, dude, what like what are those little bladders gonna do for a 20-mile like like what are you gonna do? So sure. I I I know it's like, you know, to each their own, but the vests, yeah. When did you start noticing that that was taken off?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, it was basically when we started. You know, the trail ultra running scene really took flight basically when we started our business. And and I'm not saying it's me that created it, it just I happened to be in the right place at the right time, is what that was. And and it's you know, I mean, if you look back at the history of ultras, you know, they you can read about these guys that were doing Western states with Aunt Jemima syrup bottles, and they'd run with them as their handhelds, right? Which is awesome. But it's certainly easier to wear a vest pack and or a hydration pack, whatever you want to call it, but it's a backpack on your back that is stable. And so the first I I would say I'd say there's two main drivers. You know, one is the ability to carry more crap, right? You want to carry your your backup nutrition, you want to carry your trick-in pulls, you want to carry your fluids, you want to carry your food, jackets. Those are all important things. But the most important thing, uh which I always find funny, is that I believe it all starts with the cell phone. And and so a cell phone used to be small. And and then they didn't used to have Bluetooth, right? But now all of a sudden you have the the capacity for music. And then you're like, okay, well, I need to be able to carry my electronics device so I have music and for safety. And again, it used to be small, but it gets bigger and bigger. Well, it gets bigger and bigger, you can't throw it in your pocket anymore, not without driving you crazy. And if you're a runner, I see some of these people that are going for a run. I see they're like their their pockets all jiggling around with their phone in there, and that's just I look at them like they must, they've got to be serial killers. There's no way you would ever, there's just terrible to do that. And so, and of course, phones didn't used to be waterproof. Now they, for the most part, are. But so you can't just jam it in a you know, whatever sports brawl or the side of your short run shorts or boxers, whatever. And so, again, uh a lot of people go for a run, and I do this where I'll go for a run, and a lot of times I'll I'll wear my pack, but I'm only going for an hour run. I don't even take any fluids, I don't need anything. But I got maybe my keys and my phone, and it's more convenient to grab it. Now, the key is it has to be breathable, and there's a lot of packs out there that are still not to this day, which I find amazing that some of the packs that people buy, but but as long as you're wearing a breathable pack and you can carry your phone, you know, your your head headphone case, so you can take your headphones out and stick them back in there if you want. Carry, you know, we find people that are they have you know allergies to maybe wasp and whatnot, they carry an EpiPen or their diabetics or whatever, and and you carry sugars, and we find all kinds of different reasons with why people, you know, the carry carry vests. But I would say that you know the most the biggest driver is the capacity of electronic carrying capability, and then of course fluid carrying capabilities and nutrition, so you can finish a race.
SPEAKER_01I'd rather have two liters of water than you know, uh the the little small things, man. Yeah, I can't do it. I can't do it.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and so that is another important piece, is it and it's a giant piece that I think the trail and ultrarunning community has not always, from a race perspective, many races don't always do the best at focusing on the safety of the athlete. And and and I don't mean that in a in a you know, I'm not trying to be hooper critical, but it's more of they put the safety of the athlete, they tell athletes, hey, you need to be safe, you need to be prepared, you need to bring your hydration pack or whatever it is you need to carry on course to be able to have fluids, have an emergency, you know, foiled for wraparound in case you, you know, whatever, you have a problem, you need to bring a first aid kit, whatever. Some will push on that, but some are like, yeah, you know, go for it. I hope you make it. You know, that's that's the reality. But I do believe the the the trail ultra-running community that has gotten better over the years with people wanting to be able to, you know, be safe. You know, are you do you have enough fluids to where you're not gonna have to call a med a medical emergency? And you see some people they push those limits and they just take a handheld. I'm like, I hope you make that next 12 mile section on 500 milliliters of water, you know, because that I mean, it maybe you're an amazing runner, but maybe you have an injury and all of a sudden things are not working out, and maybe you're having a bad day. So, so yeah, to me, you know, if you're gonna be doing endurance sports, you need to be prepared. And I think that's the bigger aspect of of all is just being prepared to where you have something that can get you out of a bond.
SPEAKER_01How do you know, because technology changes, gear changes, how do you know when it's time to consider some changes to your uh product?
SPEAKER_00You know, on that side, it comes down to to reviews, or probably the biggest one. And and we get people that you know that'll message in saying, Hey, I like this, but I wish you could do this. And and like my a couple of my top packs, you know, they're on version four in both of them. And and I've hit a point and I ask people, you know, I'll I'll be at a race, I'm like, hey, you you like that pack? Oh, dude, I love this pack. Well, if I made something better, what would it be? And and it's neat to where sometimes they're like, Well, I don't know. I mean, I like it. There's just it's I'm like, but you got something, right? And they're like, well, you know, if you could add a waterproof pocket or you know, something like that. Um uh and then sometimes people are like, Well, I don't like the way it looks. You know, I I wish it was a different color, I wish it was a different shape, or I wish it, you know, the bottles weren't sticking off my back or something like that. And so you you you do like we have always crowd sh crowd shifted or crowd-shaped our designs, whether it's my ambassador team, which has always been a tremendous source of feedback, and of course, customers to where we make those adjustments. And and and then sometimes it comes even from retailers. I had a a French distributor that told me that that he didn't like the plastic wrap or the plastic bag that my transition wrap, my change to Towel Seeker it came in, and and he was super critical about it, where I was like, what a prick. But he but then I came away from that. I'm like, ah, maybe he's right. And so I went and I I built a because I I don't like to waste place plastic either. You know, I I freak out on my own family if we're like, why are we using plastic cups? And you know, why why do we use are using paper plates today? Like, there's no reason. But so you know, but but it when he when he gave me that criticism, it really ticked me off. But at the same time, it what he doesn't know to this day is that it's a whole reason that I built out the whole waterproof transition wrap with a reusable stuff sack made of nylon that has no plastic waste at all. It's all constantly reusable. And it's it's actually a nice stuff sack, it's not some cheap crap that you often get on an import. So it's um it is funny how some of these some influences that they sometimes it only takes one person to really just stick with you. Maybe it's uber criticism and you kind of take personally as a brand designer, but but it it can change everything. And it like for me it has. So yeah, feedback all over.
SPEAKER_01Now, do you does it take mass or does it take one or two? It's not like sometimes, sometimes one, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean it it's even that that same French distributor, which which I never worked with, by the way, ever. Like he was he was a big beast, and and and I I'd still I need to follow up with him, I guess. But but but even when he was there, he's like, This pet, this pack is sheet. I'm like, why is it sheet? And and and and he's like, You have this this detailed sticking. I'm like, that's because we we have a phenomenal. Factory and I want to highlight that. And I had an orange thread on the perimeter. And most people love that. And it's something I got tons of feedback from. But I actually came back from that trip and I was like, I think I'm going to, I'm going to do an all black. I'm going to do an all brown. And I'm going to do an all white. And I and I did. I made my packs more, you know, your kind of classic like BMW who was the plan, right? It's like you don't know how old a BMW is, or you don't know how old a Toyota is a lot of times because they don't change things very often. And so that's why I was like, you know, I think I'm going to maybe I'll maybe I'll do that. And then of course I did get some people who were like, well, hey, I really like that orange accent stitching or the green accent, all these different ones I do. And I'm like, well, thanks. But you know, this is where it's going to be for a while. We'll test this out. And so yeah, that that one guy actually influenced a lot. And we didn't even ever, you know, I guess I was maybe a little jaded, so I didn't make an effort really to follow up with him. But but ultimately, that one guy changed a lot of the cosmetic and and packaging of how I
Retail Strategy Returns And Trust
SPEAKER_00did things.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Who's your biggest buyer that supplies orange mud?
SPEAKER_00Biggest buyer in terms of like audience, like trail runners, whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, no, no, like you know, like cabellas or dick sporting goods.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We've always been focused on specialty retail. And so we've never focused on the big box. It just hasn't been our our business premise. So we've either done D2C, a direct to consumer, or or it's specialty retail. And so like Fleet Feet Sports is it's for sure the biggest chain that we work with. And and they've been a phenomenal, they're they're a phenomenal brand, of course. And uh to me, they're like the I hate I some, I mean some people may see this positive, some negative, but they were like almost like the Starbucks of running stores, right? They're they're clean, they're efficient, well-oiled operations with a lot of resources at the top, and but you know, they charge less than Starbucks margin-wise, probably. So I I think it's it's it's a phenomenal group of independently franchised or independently owned businesses that have the top-level management. And it's it's been one of the most positive brands that I've seen in the running space, you know, for years. And so, yeah, we're in you know, hundreds or well over a hundred fleet feet stores.
SPEAKER_01There's the reason why I ask is because you know, for those who need to talk try on or test, they can go and test it. So fleet feet. Okay. Fleet feet. All right. And what what about gosh, sorry? When when like direct to the you know, the clients and everything else, how like if you don't like it, is there a refund or return policy? Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying run a hundred miles in it, get it all salty, and then return it. Like how's the return policy on that?
SPEAKER_00No, and that's and yeah, I always tell people, I actually would like like it if you did that. That would be great. I mean, ideally, yeah, wash it before you send it back. You know, otherwise, my wife and sister who are both handle the returns, you know, they would be unhappy. But but yeah, we we've always encouraged people since the very beginning, you know, run in it. And and I tell people, even if we get like a three-star review on a product or something, I message them, I'm well, what is it you don't like? And and you know, they'll tell me, and I'm like, well, hey, I don't want you to feel like you need to keep it, send it back. You know, we'll give you your money back. And and people are like, Yeah, but I've already sweated it. And I'm like, but that's the purpose. Like, I don't want, I never want anybody to feel like they need to keep a pack that that doesn't work for them. So all I've ever asked from people is, I don't want you to try it on in your living room because I did not design it for a living room, anything that I made. And and so maybe some laser edge cups, but that's about it. But but I I've never designed anything for a living room. So the whole intent is I always I have I've always said since the beginning, please go for at least three runs. And and if you still don't like it, message us. Maybe we maybe there's some fit that isn't quite right. But of course, you know, if you don't like it, send it back and we'll give you your money back. So we're we've always been very lenient on that side, but but I mean, we we've had people that have had, we had a lady that tagged us in social the other day. I think she had had her pack 10 years and she'd finally worn out some, I think it was a Velcro piece up top or something. And and she had messaged me like, Josh, I've had this pack for years. It's time for a new one, though. This is a piece here, it's finally worn out. And I was like, Well, you can send it to me. I'm like, if you want to buy a new one, you can, but if you send it to me, I'll fix it for no charge. And and it replaced that. And and she did. And she was super stoked. And so I mean, we we have you know, a one-year warranty, I guess, just to be, you know, you gotta have some some sort of boundaries, I guess. But but I mean, we we take care of people. Like that is you won't find anybody out there that are like, oh yeah, orange mud made made me keep a pack that I didn't like. You won't find a review out that uh anywhere on that side. What's your number one seller? Our on the hydration packs, our endurance pack and and the BP one, the bottle-based pack with chest pockets, those are the top two.
SPEAKER_01Top two.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well all right, got a couple questions and we're we're good unless you want to keep going.
SPEAKER_00But uh what what book changed your life there well, I would say two, and it because it depends on the on which vertical you're looking at. But when I was training for, I think it was for Leadman at the time, I was listening to the to the audiobook traction, or sorry, not traction, endurance. Okay, yeah. You know, the the Shackleton's adventure, and it makes you realize that anything that we're doing is seriously inconsequential compared to some of the adventures of years past. They they went on to levels that were so much more tough than anything that we will experience in our lives. It's crazy, it's just nothing. There's nothing like it. And so I I was just 100% inspired by that book. And then it led to a whole bunch more about you know, ship travel and ocean travel. But uh but it's awesome. So I love that book. And then the other one is is Traction. You know, after I was about a year and a half into my business, and and I'd made a lot of mistakes, just like anybody in startup mode does, and and a lot of those mistakes were expensive. And and and as I listened to this book, I was actually on a road trip to Texas from California at the time, and uh I spent 58 hours in the car and and in in that uh in that trip. And traction was the first book I listened, listened to, and it was really neat because it it's probably a little bit dated now, but it there's a lot of the principles still apply, and it is really how to how to build a business. And it's all the marketing pieces really, but it it talks about all the things not to do and things you should do. And and I almost did every single thing they said not to do. And so I I did find it just ironic with all the problems that that they spelled out of things not to do, and I of course did them. So yeah, I would say it that helped to to really shape and organize a lot of how I I built the bones of our business in their earlier days to kind of write the ship and make sure we're going down a path of being intelligent with you know with spend really in your sales marketing strategy. It's hard when you're building against these beasts, right? Most people in this, most of my competition in this space are big VC companies. You pick the brands, they are owned either by a big VC company or they're owned by another company that's probably way bigger than we are. And and for us, it's my wife and I that own our business. Nope, we don't have shareholders. I mean, we have us, but that's it. And so that that's where you you've got to be more intelligent with your spend. You know, we've we don't have the the marketing budgets of you know, hiring all these pro athletes to go race some forests all around the world. And so we we we built it on grassroots marketing. We want people to enjoy a product and go out and run and and go have a good time, go ride, whatever it is. So, yeah, that's that's where that that book really helped to kind of shape that and and figure out how can you maximize your dollars that you're investing into the market and and scale and and and it's it's of course evolved a ton since that book came out, but but yeah, it's a it's a great great book.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Thank you for that. Yeah. All right. Went out and running,
Books Nutrition And Life In Austin
SPEAKER_01trail running, biking, everything else on the gravel. What was your go-to for nutrition?
SPEAKER_00I I'm a giant fan of infinite nutrition. I've been using them for 12 years, uh, I think now. And I I was actually I'd finished an Ultra and I was on another major brand, and I I threw up at the end of the race and I tore my psoas muscle. It took like a year or two to heal from that. And and it was just something that like you can do quite a bit of cycling stuff without nutrition problems for the most part. You know, there's there's limits. You hit that 10-hour plus in general, you're gonna have to have your nutrition more refined, but running for sure will get you within usually I'd say two to six hours, you're gonna know how well your nutrition works with you. But you need to push heat distressed and and push and erase. And usually in that two to six hour window, you're gonna start finding out how you're gonna how your nutrition works with you. And and so, and I've always done stupid endurance things. So I had tried a lot over the years, and even certain ones that I used to use worked for a while until they didn't. And and so I'd hit this point where I was like on this quest and I'm buying all these different ones. And and I don't even know how I found infinite, but but I I have learned a lot through endurance racing about, you know, it just takes calories and electrolytes. And if you have those two things, you can do anything. And so what I that's probably how I found them, maybe in a Google search of you can do a custom formula. So I I have a custom formula that's made for me that has a higher sodium and magnesium mix than than even their standard formulas. And then I don't like a lot of flavor in in a long haul because you know your your mix is gonna get hot in a lot of these things when you're racing for days. And and so I I flavored my I brought my flavor profile down and and I had a kind of a custom formula. So I I've never had a GI distress issue ever since using it. And I've done, I mean, hundreds of races with it, and and again, ridiculous distances and multiple disciplines. So yeah, I can't say enough good of good things about that. And then I do believe everybody should always carry a sweet and a salt with you, also, uh, because your body always craves one or the other. And you know, maybe it's uh like pickles or you know, pickle the pickle juice shots, those things are great just to strip sugars off your tongue, but you may crave just something solid every once in a while, and that's where I always try to carry a sweet and a salt with me as a backup. But but I'm pretty good. I can I can go liquid nutrition almost exclusively for you know a long time. 24 yeah yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's it's good. Yeah, the only time I eat real food is just because it's there. You know, maybe I come into an aid station in a you know, long extended race, but like when I'm doing some of the longer, you know, three, four, five-day type of races, or you know, if there's pizza or something, or if I go to a gas station, I'm gonna throw down Dr. Pepper, Coca-Cola, or pickles and pizza, maybe all those. Yeah, but but I mean ultimately, like, yeah, in most races, I'm just gonna stick with liquid unless there's a real good reason to have something else. But generally, I I run all liquid and no issues at all.
SPEAKER_01Okay. All right, celebratory food. What's your go-to? What do you crave when you're done? You're like, honey, I need I need this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, I tell you the one thing that that I one of the coolest things, and and I remember talking with the the owner of Infinite about this, I was I was surprised. Normally when I when I would race, I would crave a hamburger, like just craving a hamburger or a taco. And and all of a sudden, I I noticed when using that infinite mix that I wasn't hungry afterwards. I didn't even, I didn't think about food. And and I didn't understand it. And I asked them about it, and I don't remember the exact specifics, but I'm pretty sure it was the omega-3s with a deficit. And and and and what I was what I've learned over the years is that the again, I it's one of the omegas, but I believe it was omega-3. You could even take like an omega-3 fish pill during a race, which sounds terrible. So I didn't ever do that. But but but they have omega-3s in their mix, but but but that was another thing I think a nutritionist told me is that you could take an omega-3 fish pill in a race, or maybe eat some salmon, I guess. And you just need a little bit, but that little bit of protein and and it was the omega somehow translated to phosphates. And again, I don't remember the exact specifics, but but it was it was the reduction of phosphates in your body that ultimately makes you crave usually sodas and food. And and of course, if you don't have any protein, if you're not getting that, then you're gonna crave it. So I have found that whatever it is in their mix between that and that the phosphates, the megas, and the protein, I just I usually finish and I'm just good. I want a beer, maybe water, something cold. And of course, yeah, I mean, within an hour, I'm definitely gonna be throwing down some good grub. But but it it really it definitely changed things for me because a lot of times in a race, you end up getting so like psychologically locked into like, I've got to get a burger. I'm starving. And if you're starving, there's something not right, you know, something's off chemically. And and but again, I I haven't had that for years. I mean, it's it's it's been yeah, probably a dozen years.
SPEAKER_01Okay, you said you're from Austin or you live in Austin, you got the Austin city limits. I'm a huge moot music guru plus podcaster, you know, Joe Rogan's. They are down there now. Yeah. You listen to music? Oh, yeah. Uh, what's what's the number one person or uh band or song on your playlist right now?
SPEAKER_00So I started playing the guitar a few years back and and I play almost every day. And I'm still a rookie, but but I I often now play music, listen to a lot of music that that I can try to play. And and I would say top right now is is kind of a either Brothers Osborne or Breaking Rust, two very different bands, but both of them are super awesome. And and yeah, I think both of them are are incredible and and have some just really neat music styles that I I try to play.
SPEAKER_01You guys got a lot of red dirt down there too.
SPEAKER_00There's an incredible amount. Yeah, actually, you there's if you go on Amazon Music and you ask it to play red dirt music. When I first moved here seven years ago, that's actually what I did consistently as like my music playlist. I'm like, Amazon play red dirt music. And and and that's what it would do. It's just it'd just get rocking on red dirt music. And and there is, there's an incredible amount. And it's the the cool part of Texas is that there's so much live, I don't see it as much as I would like to, but there's so much live music at small venues. And like I saw Randy Rogers a while back in in a little small place. And I mean, those guys are legendary. And here we're like sitting on picnic tables in front of them on stage, and yeah, and it was like fifty dollars or something, a ticket. It's not five hundred dollars for a Taylor Swift concert or whatever those go for. I don't know. But you know, so yeah, it's crazy. But yeah, Texas is they they do such a good job with with live music here. It's it's incredible. Well, you're you're in the Mecca right now, man.
SPEAKER_01Austin is huge. And I man, I I've been trying to tell my wife that I've been wanting to go down there just to, you know, for a weekend just to take it all in because there's so many bands that are trying to make it, trying to you know get it, and then they're always playing with somebody who it who has made it, you know. And so yeah, that's a that's a good place. Too hot for me, but it is pretty hot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a dry heat, you know, it starts humid in the mornings, but Austin's definitely a place that is unique, like that, where it'll start in the morning to maybe like this morning. I was out on the patio and it's probably 60% humidity, but right now it's probably 35. You know, it does drop, it has a huge drop in humidity. That I like I grew up in Kansas and it wasn't like that. It's like you go outside and man, it's like breathing underwater. And then at noon, it's still breathing underwater. At five, still breathing underwater. I love it. No knock on my Kansas people. I love the state. But that being said, Austin has that big drop-off, but it often is most mornings, kind of humid, and then it but it it it dries out, so yeah, it's it's it's good. It's Austin's a pretty killer state, man. It's or Texas is a killer state, and yeah, the Austin area is is to me the greatest place I've ever lived. And we're up in Liberty Hills where we live. Our office is in Round Rock, and and we're on the edge of things, so you know it's easy to to get out of town. And like tomorrow, I'm we have a ranch an hour north of here, and we're gonna go up there and we build a place out in the country, and and we'll we have uh it's just a play ranch, but but we'll go up there and and you know, ride motos or you know, ride ride our bikes, mountain bikes, gravel bikes, and you know, hunt fish, whatever. And it's it's just so cool that it's it's just an incredible culture all all around. So a bunch of friendly people and great mindset.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I normally travel, I used to travel a lot for races and you know, mountains. I still travel for mountains, but you guys don't have mountains. I did yeah, I did do the highest peak in Texas last year, so I'm good. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, and that man, that was beautiful. I love it. Have you been up? Have you done it?
SPEAKER_00No, that's is it which one is that? Is that that's up in the panhandle, right? Is that in part of the cap rock?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah. What's the highest peak? God I forgot the name. Oh gosh. I forgot the name. It's Guadalupe. Is it Guadalupe? Guadalupe. Oh, yeah, no, that's down in Big Bend, right?
SPEAKER_00Uh uh no, up up north.
SPEAKER_01I I came in, yeah. I came in to I came in from El Paso, drove a couple miles, and then went to New Mexico right afterwards. And it's like right there near New Mexico.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I haven't I haven't done that one yet. We did we we just did uh Palo Duro, we just got back from a 3,500-mile road road trip where we went all around. But we ended up doing hike in Palo Duro, which is incredible in the northwest portion of the state. But but but yeah, I I haven't made it to Guadalupe yet. I I need to, you know, it's it's something since we've been here, you know, COVID was like the crazy thing, right? Everything went on lockdown, and then we were growing seven clay, and then you know, orange mud was thriving and and growing, and and and then my kids are 13 and 14. So we we have been just like holding on. You know, it's I mean, when you've got kids that are 13 and 14 and they're they've been in soccer like six days a week forever, it's yeah, you're just like every day. I'm like, am I where are we driving today? Where where are we going? You don't even know, you just have to follow your schedule. But now they're they're finally getting to a point where they're both just doing school sports this year. We're excited that we're able to kind of get away and do more. Like we just did a Kansas trip just this past week, and and we just did our you know, 15-day vacay right before that. And and so we're we're trying to finally get out and explore our own state more. But you know, I I'm probably better at checking other states out than I am off of my home state. It seems like it's always the way it works, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but Big Ben's not been on my list, but something closed down. I think something closed down in Big Ben recently that come for another year or two.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're rebuilding something there. Yeah, we were gonna go for spring break and we couldn't get a lot, we couldn't get a place to keep our dog. That was the biggest challenge. And so yeah, I was really bummed. We we were we are I was hell bent on getting to Big Ben this year because I haven't done that. And but yeah, we just did you know some other stuff. But but yeah, Texas, I mean, we may not have mountains here, but we do have some incredible hills, uh, incredible hill country, and it goes on for miles. I mean, it's in in so many different directions from the Austin area, and you know, even out east, you've got all the giant, you know, forests, it's just woods as far as you can see, and yeah, and out west the desert is you know, it's its own level of you know beauty, and and even you know, Paladuro, the canyon there is is it's the second biggest canyon in the United States next to the Grand Canyon. And and it's really cool to see, but you know, Texas is it's really it's its own country, it's it's giant, you know, it's huge. Yeah, it takes everything. It is absolutely huge. It's like I think we spent 13 hours, I think it was, just from the northwest corner when we came in from Santa Fe working our way back. And I mean, God, it's
How To Find Orange Mud
SPEAKER_00it's just so far. But yeah, yeah, it's it's big, it's a good spot.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, Josh, if is there anything you you want to add? Is there something I left out? No, man, I'm good. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm easy. Josh, how can people like not contact you, but find your find orange mud? I know I can find it on Instagram. It changed my algorithm a bit, but yeah. Uh how can people how how can people find you? You know, how can they get your products and whatnot?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah, just check us out, orangemud.com, uh, orange like the fruit, mud with only one D. It's amazing how many people are like, it's mud with two Ds. I'm like, no, mud like mud, you know, just like it's always been. Yeah, orangemud.com, look us up on there, we're easy to find, or Amazon. A lot of people go to Amazon anymore, obviously, but we always love to have people to our website because you can actually get a product education, even if you're gonna buy on Amazon. It it's generally it's the one downside to Amazon is you don't get a product education. You go to a website, you can read actually, you know. Well, there's of course reviews on Amazon, but they don't have near the volume that a normal website does. But we educate people like here's how to fit it, here's how to wash it, here's how to wear it. It's just, you know, we'd love to have people there. But yeah, you can't, you can't, you won't have a hard time finding us. You just search orange mud, you'll find us.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and if somebody wants embroidery or buy in in bulk, they can go seven clay.
SPEAKER_00Yep, spelled out S E B-E-N-C-L-A-Y.com.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and get a hold of you. They just have to message on Instagram, maybe sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Instagram, Facebook. You look me up, you'll find me. I'm I'm pretty easy to find.
SPEAKER_01All right, Josh. Well, man, it's a pleasure talking to you. It's it's it's cool to see how you get ticked and you just build something. And we've done that twice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hopefully, no more. I think I'm done.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, hopefully you don't get ticked off too much. I mean, because third time is a charm, but I mean, who knows? Something probably, you know, tick you off and then out of frustration you build it. But you're very successful and it and it shows. And keep keep it up, dude. It's it's pretty awesome, you know, to to to run into somebody who knows the tricks of the trade and master of all. And the sure it's it's wonderful to have you on. And uh you could always come on anytime. I appreciate it. I've been doing this next month. It'll be five, five years, man. Nice, good job. Yeah, I've I've interviewed a lot of people. A lot of people keep things secret, even though they come on the podcast, they keep it secret, and then it's just like, okay, what was the whole point? But you know, it's amazing to talk to somebody to actually you know hear how they did things and do things and continue to do it and whatnot. And I'm gonna go on orange mud now and try to see a handheld or a belt of some sort. So I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00You got it. I appreciate you.