Miles & Mountains
Join Nick, a social worker and coach by day, as he unravels the inspiring stories of athletes and the public, uncovering the motivations behind their actions, from conquering mountains to participating in ultra-endurance races and competing in rodeos. Get ready for heartwarming tales of community support, acts of kindness, and the revelation that everyone has a deeper story to tell. Whether it's running, climbing, or participating in rodeos, these stories will inspire and uplift. #Running, #Climbing, #EverydayAthletes, #Rodeo
Miles & Mountains
Where Imagination Meets Wilderness with Eliot Pepers
A headlamp slicing the dark. A kid who’d rather be grinding levels than hiking switchbacks. A flash of fear on the roadside that turns into something like courage. Eliot Peper joins us to share Ensorcelled, his compact 90-minute novel about a boy named Tim whose attention is split between the glowing pull of video games and the raw, unscripted wonder of the Sierra backcountry.
We dig into why this story works so well in a short form and how a tight arc can carry more voltage than a sprawling series. Eliot talks about writing in first person to capture a mind that hops from action to reflection to speculation, and how the book intentionally blurs that line where imagination colors reality without erasing it. He opens up about the moment that inspired the “rewild your attention” theme: seeing himself through his newborn’s eyes, staring at a small rectangle while the world dazzled right beside it. From there, we trace the trail—parents, friction, friends, and a mysterious light that readers can’t stop talking about.
The outdoors isn’t just scenery here. Eliot draws from real trips to a hidden Sierra lake and a life lived near the Pacific, where surfing teaches timing, patience, and commitment. We talk about creativity as a way to love nature more—write a page, sketch a shoreline, record a wave—and why that practice makes the next ride richer. We also widen the lens: genre as a toolbox rather than a box, how to market work that refuses neat labels, and why he thinks writer’s block is a myth for long-form storytellers. Plus, a candid take on AI as both promise and upheaval, closer to the printing press than a passing fad.
If you’re hungry for a fast, moving read that blends fantasy’s wonder with the grit of real trails, you’ll find a lot to love here. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a nudge outdoors, and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.
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Elliot Pepper, how are you, man?
SPEAKER_01:I'm doing very well. It's good to connect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, finally, right? After a couple times, couple times, but it happens. People know it happens.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. Both, both of our faults. You gotta get to get those stars aligning.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Kids, real life. Yeah, kids. I have three.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know how many you have, but you know, you we're I've got one, but he's two and a half right now, so he's a bundle of energy. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. So have fun and good luck. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I need it.
SPEAKER_00:So so Elliot, you you're an author, 12 novels, right? You you you reached out early September. Don't know how, don't know why, or I don't even know how you found me, but you found me, but you knew I like to read and put authors on. I had so I have to ask before we go on, how did you find me?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you bet. So, I mean, I love the outdoors, like I spend a lot of time in the outdoors. I live in Pacifica, California. So when I'm not writing, I'm surfing, and so I'm I'm in the ocean a lot. And I also try to spend a lot of times in the mountains, you know, like backpacking and all that kind of thing. And so I I love listening to podcasts that are about the outdoors, that are about the love of the outdoors, and that's how I came across the show. And that's also that the love that I feel for spending time in nature and the the kinds of ways in which spending time in nature has changed my life is uh is like very much a central theme of of this of this book. And so I just thought that you basically I just thought you might enjoy it. Yeah, so that's why that's why I reached out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, and and and I did, and I love it. So if you want, you know, you can tell the title and we'll we'll start from there.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, yeah. The yeah, my new novel is called Ensorceled that came out. We're recording on a Friday, and it actually came out on Wednesday. So it is it's fresh. And yeah, it's about it's about it's a coming of age adventure about a boy who goes on a camping trip that changes his life and sort of opens his mind, opens his heart, and rewilds his attention.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. 90-minute read. Never heard of that until I read this book, and I got it a lot earlier than most, and and it is signed. So I appreciate it. Such an honor to uh have a book signed by an author and get it early. So I've I've I've had my my feel, my taste, also, you know, it's it's cerebral. So I was like, okay, trying to dissect it because you know, I've I've had a f a couple authors on and I dissect it and just blow their minds on you know my interpretation. So uh basically without telling everybody about the book because it's a 90-minute book, main character loves video games, right? Did you actually put the name of the main character? Tim. Tim, yes, okay, all right, all right. I know I know Lenny and Theo and that, but I've I've I tried to find the main character's name and I just couldn't find it. So Tim.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's uh it's also written in first person, so that's that's why his name, like ironically, the main character's name doesn't show up as often as you might think for that reason.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yes, and quite the imagination. And I'm just gonna stick to the script. Went on an adventure with the parents, right? But meets two characters, Lenny and Theo, had some turmoil, went on a trip with Lenny on the trail, and then something happens and they make it out, right? But in the midst of all this, it's like they they they have imagination of the there's the dragons, the colors, the scenery, the nights, the the the lights from you know their headlamps and more video games throughout the whole book, right? The 90-minute read, and it goes back and forth, and the way you did it is man, it's like it's mind-blowing, believe it or not. And sometimes you have to catch yourself, okay, is this real? Or it like, is it fantasy? Like, seriously, you you know, and did you make it to be that way?
SPEAKER_01:Did so one of the things I was thinking about a lot as I was writing this story is that we you earlier on, you were you were you mentioned that we both have kids. And when my son was born, he's our first, he's our first kid. And when he was born, one thing I noticed was that when you know, when I'd be hanging out with him at home, I became hyper aware of whenever I was looking at my phone, because you know, I have this newborn, and he's looking at this amazing world that he's been born into, right? It's just like it, like literally, you know, a shoe, like a slipper on the floor is just like like a completely new life experience for him, and so everything is fascinating. And yet, I imagine seeing myself, his father, through his eyes, where he's looking around at all this amazing stuff, and I'm looking at this weird rectangle in my hand, right? And for me, I'm looking through the phone, I'm looking at what's in on the internet, it's a window into this sort of like digital world. But for but from his perspective, I'm just staring at a weird rectangle, and so that really got me, you know, just more made me more cognizant of my basically information diet and where I was where I was investing my attention. And and it made and and that realization sort of helped inform this story. And so for Tam, you know, he loved, as you said, he loves video games, right? He loves these very much so yeah, he loves it. Yeah, and he loves these, you know, these the and what are video games? I mean, they're just like they're fantasies, right? They're these fantasies that they're they're there's the imaginary worlds that we get to mess around and play with. And like when I was growing up, I also loved video games. Like, I don't have like a problem with them like philosophically, like they're fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I think that like you know, but uh if you if you spend all your time living in imaginary worlds, whether that's who whether that's in source of the novel that I wrote, which is like an example of a of a fantasy world, right? Or whether it's a video game, or whether it's like scrolling TikTok, like any of these imaginary virtual worlds, you miss out on all of like the incredible context and marvels and wonders that are embedded in the physical world that we live in. And so this story plays with that a lot, right? Like he's a he is both a you know, a 12-year-old who's obsessed with video games, so he spends a lot of time in imaginary worlds, but he also loves to draw. So he loves to invent imaginary worlds, and he's just an imaginative kid. So whenever he's like living his life, when you're seeing the world through his eyes, he's always sort of like spinning up weird like thoughts and ideas about the things he observes, right? So I I that I actually wanted to like sort of push the boundaries on that as a writer, as I was writing this character, because that's such an important lens through him for him, yeah, through which he experiences life. And so that's why when you're reading the book, there's a lot of moving back and forth between action where like something's happening to reflection, where maybe he's like thinking about something that's happening and connecting that to you know, connecting it to other dots, and then like speculation where he's imagining something that might happen next, or connecting it to games he's played, or what what have you. So, yeah, as you read the text, it's very yeah, it's it's it's very dynamic, it moves a lot between action and thought and imagination.
SPEAKER_00:And and the way you went through, you know, San Francisco and the outdoors, you you know, that's what got me off sold, you know, outdoors anything sold, you know. But the video games and then the outdoors, I'm like, I need some more of that. You you just you you did a great job at getting tidbits and explaining it and then going from this one to the next one. I mean, superb job. So, but the outdoors, I was like, okay, when when we when are we gonna do it? When are we gonna do it, right? So if before I give you my three ways of of seeing it, would you want to uh say any more about your book before I I I blow my mind or blow your mind because I I I I kinda enjoy just sharing my thoughts.
SPEAKER_01:I want to hear your thoughts. I'm delighted to hear your thoughts. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So, one one of the scenes that really stood out, right? Besides the video games into real life parents and fighting parents and arguing with them about not going, doesn't want to go, games coming out, this and that. I I felt the drive in that supposed little accident on the side of the road, right? I felt like that was a traumatic event or a trigger for Tim to somewhat get lost. You know, how in real life somebody gets triggered, they find their coping mechanism. I feel like his thoughts, uh the way he goes from video games to real life, I felt like it was one of his ways of coping. Um a traumatic event, because any of that, you know, he almost got hit, right? Dad almost got hit, right? So, so you know, I I I felt that was his his way of escaping uh reality and became a setback and set him back a bit. That's one. I I feel that was a major cat cat catalyst of the story. I felt the uh the character since he didn't want to go, felt like he was daydreaming the whole way up to uh the woods. Okay. The and and what is it? He couldn't he couldn't get enough of the video game, so he just to get away, to get away from the parents, felt like he was just daydreaming the whole thing. All right, and lastly, felt like he was building a world in a video game, almost like Roblox or the Fortnite Lego. I like Lego Fortnite, I'm just telling you. Loki felt felt like you know, it could have been he was building his own world with two other people, you know, and in chat, and uh he didn't get along with one, so uh him and Lenny made their own world that night, saw some things, dealt with some turmoil, or you know, just a little adventure of themselves and got out of it, and then boom, the end, you know what I mean. And that that that that was my interpretation in those three little things, and it's just like, how can I get there? How can I get there? I don't know, maybe it's my day job. I I I I don't know, but the way you described in the 90 pages, you know, someone can interpret it in so many ways. Well done, well done.
SPEAKER_01:So oh, I really appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, one thing that I really enjoy about as a reader of of speculative fiction, basically, like of of like fiction that has these imaginative elements woven into it is that my favorite books, it's not just that the books like the story is imaginative, it's that it makes me imagine things. I'm almost like a participant, right? It's like when you go to watch a movie, everything's up on the screen in front of you, and like right that is awesome. Like, I love good movies, but like I feel like one really special thing about books is that like the reader is you're filming the movie in your mind, right? Right. And so I think that like one like I love hearing your the the pieces that stood out for you and the the different lenses through which you are evaluating or interpreting the story because I actually think that like that's part of the fun, right? Like the fact that like the story that you can bring different perspectives to the story and take different things out of it is part of like the beauty of like novels as an art form. And so I I just I'm very moved and and I think that's that's really cool. And I really appreciate you sharing that.
SPEAKER_00:So not full of crud.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I mean, I I think that's yeah, that's that's that's yeah, exactly. That's part of the fun. And you know, you mentioned like the the sort of the car accident scene, yeah. And you know, one thing I was really thinking a lot about there that's how how sort of courage, you know, some people call courage the mother of virtues because it's like in order to have any other, like in order to do anything else, you sort of need to find courage. And I think that like one thing I was trying to do in that scene with with Lenny's character is just show how he reacts to fear and how an imaginative kid can react to fear, right? It's like we've probably all experienced in our lives like something bad happens and we just go into this bad spiral in our head, right? Where you're like, and like you can't get out, you just get sort of like locked in. And like, I mean, I've experienced you know, it's like it keeps you up at night, you just can't sort of you get stuck in these loops. And I think that like part of part of the overall arc of Tam in this story is that we see him like get trapped in those loops, and also that like the adventure that he goes on with his friends equips him to start breaking out of those loops in a new way, right? Which is, I think, something I'm always reaching for when I struggle. And like hopefully, you know, readers that can resonate with readers as well.
SPEAKER_00:So another thing, and your in your eyes, you wrote the book. Was Lenny a real friend or was it imagination?
SPEAKER_01:Ah okay. Yeah, I got it, got it, got it. Yeah, yeah. This is like the uh yeah, yeah. Uh this is how how how deep does the rabbit hole go? Kind of a question. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, okay. Uh so I like so I'll say I'll give you what I think, okay, but I I I want to like add a big caveat, which is that like as a like I think that with art in general, whether it's a movie, visual art, music, anything, like interpretation is up to the reader, not up to the author's intent, right? So, but I I will share my intent. It's not like I'm not gonna like keep it from you or something. Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00:You can say yes or no, but totally, totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so so in in my it like the way I envision and experience the story, like the adventure is real, right? We have like he like Tam is obsessed with video games, so we see a lot of that. He's very imaginative, so we go on all these sort of like diversions into things that he's thinking in his head, but then like the main events of the plot are all like actually happening rather than like happening in his head in a like the matrix kind of way. Okay, man.
SPEAKER_00:You had me spinning, okay. I'm just yeah, yeah, guys.
SPEAKER_01:But I'm I'm I'm actually like pretty delighted to hear that that got you spinning because the central theme of the book is so plays so much with imagination, with like interpreting reality in different ways. So I actually think that's like extremely cool okay that you had a very different interpretation of it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not you know BSing you, you know, or your listeners who will be listening, you know, and my listeners. I I definitely want you to check it out because once you start going on that adventure with them, it's almost like you're there, but then they see this light and then come about, you know, so it's like, come on, man, come on, Elliot. All right, all right. So, yes. So, I mean, when I was reading it, I just really dove in and like, okay, okay, you know, it's just like taking notes. I'm like, all right, all right, okay. So, did you know that you were gonna make a short book?
SPEAKER_01:No, I mean the short answer is no. I actually had imagined that this story would like my original idea for this story was much, much longer. Like, in fact, this was just sort of like the first, like like parts of the exist uh of the book you read were like sort of how I imagined maybe the first act of like a larger story. But like one thing that I found as a writer is that no idea survives contact with the enemy, right? So, like the minute I'm actually working on a story, the minute I'm actually like in a manuscript, like facing that blank page, like things change dramatically. It's it's I I've never written a book where like I had a plan and the plan worked. So, so when I was working on this story, I found that I was like, wait a minute, like all of the important, all of the magic in the story, all of like the things that that make it tick, want to be right here, right here in what I imagined would be the beginning. And and so it sort of it condensed, it it really like tightened up compared to what I thought the initial plan would be. And I was actually delighted by that because I have an unreasonable affection for short books. I actually think that this is extremely nerdy, so I hope you will forgive me, but like in the in the in the weird and wonderful world of book publishing, there are sort of these norms like the like where like a book should be a certain length, right? And like not just a book should be a certain length, but like different books in different genres have like normal lengths associated with them. And so there's a lot of industry pressure to basically conform to that. And it's quite rare to have you know novellas like these like small, like small books, but I quite love them. Like as a reader, there are a few that have like have really meant a lot to me. Like Claire Keegan wrote a book called Foster that's like shorter than in Source Salt, and it'll just break your heart, right? And there was a lovely adventure story called I think How to Lose the Time War, that that like was like very you know, it sort of like was a surprise hit a couple of years ago. But basically, like tiny books where you have a full story arc, like they you're real it is a full novel, it's just in this tight, condensed form. I just have a real affection for them. And so once ensurced started to become that, I was pretty delighted. And I think that maybe one of the roots of my like weird obsession with small books is that in today's world, we're sort of surrounded by the opposite. Like, if you think about like Netflix, you have all these like sprawling, loose, messy stories that never end and they like cancel it after two seasons and like nothing is resolved. And I find that, like as a writer, when I like watch series like that or read book series like that, I often feel really frustrated because I'm just like, tell me, tell me the damn story. Like, like an ending is an incredibly important part to uh to making a story click. It's like I'm I'm not gonna tell you a joke without a punchline, and so so once in source started started to fit that that form factor of like 90 pages. I just I thought that was gonna be super cool, but I had a lot of I I didn't know if it was gonna work, and it actually wasn't. There was one moment where because you know, I'm working on a manuscript, right? I'm like typing on my computer and going through uh countless rounds of edits and trying to you know make it the best it can be. And when I was looking at that, I was like, you know, I hope this will work, but I don't really, you know, it totally might not. But then Peter Noel, who designed InSource Soul, when he designed the book, and I am the first print proof, like the first ver print physical version of it arrived at my house and I could hold it in my hands. That was the first moment when I was like, Oh, this is something there's something special here. Like, this is actually super cool, and I'm really excited to share it with readers.
SPEAKER_00:So now that it's out, it was out two days ago, October 8th. The plan worked. Overall, the plan worked. Can you say yes or no? Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, I wasn't sure if that was a statement or a question. Yeah, no, I've been, I mean, frankly, like I've been really overwhelmed and moved by by the reaction from readers to this book. And because it's a short book, I'm getting reactions way faster than I normally do for a novel. And great work. Yeah, but I mean, I so compared the again, like this is my 12th book, and I have never received so many messages from strangers from readers who said that the story brought them to tears. Like, yeah, compared to any other book. So I I don't know, it's really moving. Uh, it's it's a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I I I can see where they can be moved in tears at that moment, that light, that that the lights. Um I you know, I'm gonna leave that, okay? We'll just say the light. Once they see the light, you can interpret in so many other ways, okay. Like, all right, I like it. Why not give us more of the wilderness, though? That's the only thing because I was an outdoorsy guy, I wanted some more, I wanted some more, and and when you put it out there, it was a little, a little bit, and it just like was like, okay, I need some, I need more. I was craving more, but then it happened, and then bam. Why not give more of the wilderness?
SPEAKER_01:Well, leaving you wanting more is maybe not a bad thing in a in a novel. No, it's not, I know, but uh yeah, yeah. Uh and uh I will say that my wife reads the rough draft of every book I write and gives me notes, and she is very honest. And and one note that she has had on every single book I've written is actually what you just said is like I like more of this. And yeah, so I maybe it's just a I don't know. Uh I I at this point, because I apparently have not figured out how to give more over 12 novels, like maybe that's just like a tick of me as a writer.
SPEAKER_00:But uh the tease, man. Yeah, it's outdoors gay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I will say though, like as an outdoors guy, so the the sort of the the the setting for for the like the outdoor setting for that for the adventure in the book is actually like there it is inspired by a series of trips that we do with a group of friends up to the Sierra Nevadas. And there's this sort of like secret backcountry lake where we we get out there with all our kids and everything every summer for a week and and just do just enjoy the incredible backcountry that is you know is so prevalent in the American West. And so there's actually like a very specific secret lake that like inspired this precise story, and so it was actually a real joy both to be able to try to bring a place, like a a place from the a very specific place from the outdoors into into a novel, you know, you know, and to channel my love for it in trying to write all of the sections about that place. And it was also a real joy to have an excuse because I was writing about it to like do like just strange, weird niche research to inform you know some of the the components of the story. So I would actually say that if if any of your listeners like, and actually, this is very relevant to like the section about tan drawing, like I feel like if you love the outdoors, one thing that would be worth experimenting with is if you don't currently like write or draw or make music or necessarily have some kind of like creative outlet to develop one precisely to basically give a channel for your love of the outdoors. Because I found that like writing about like places I love in nature has given me an even deeper appreciation for them when I'm there. So I feel like maybe you feel something similar making this podcast, right? You get you know, you sort of really get to reflect on that. And I feel like for anyone, like you don't have whatever you don't have to publish books, you can just write it in a journal or whatever, right? But like it just it it sort of like distills your attention and and and just allows you to really like experience like the beauty of the world we live in in a new way.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, you pretty much read my mind because that was the the next question. What inspired you? So I appreciate you just reading my mind and uh saying so. So who or what has inspired you to be the writer you are today?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, growing up, I always was like a total bookworm. So I would hide in the library stack so my parents couldn't find me to take me home and stuff like that. You know, I I would actually very rarely read what was assigned to me in school and instead just read whatever whatever I wanted.
SPEAKER_00:You're one of those, one of those, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um but so I've always just loved reading, and and what inspired me to write my first novel, and then you know, 12 novels later, what inspired me to write and sourciled are are the same thing, which is basically like I there, I have an idea for a book I want to read. I'm just like I want this feeling as a reader, and nothing, and I try to find it, right? Like I sort of try to seek it out as a reader, but when I can't figure out how to scratch that itch, that's when I'm like, okay, like I'm gonna sit down and try to to to write this book because if it can scratch my own itch, maybe there are other people who share my taste, right? And yeah, again, I don't know if maybe you can identify like with the podcast, like when you took the leap to start producing it, like you had to have a read, right? You had to sort of like you wanted there's a gap in the world you want to fill. And that that's how I that's how I feel. And that's sort of like the yeah, like the the feeling behind every book. And obviously each book is different, right? It's like a different, like it has different ideas, a different story, and all that, but like that's the unifying factor that I'm always like I write the book I want to read.
SPEAKER_00:Your author, your number one author. You can't miss, you have to read. Well, what's the one author you enjoy?
SPEAKER_01:Oh okay. Well, you said you love nonfiction, and at the beginning of our conversation, I mentioned that that I am a I surf, and there's an incredible memoir called Barbarian Days of Surfing. Yes, William Finnegan. I don't know. Have you oh you've read it?
SPEAKER_00:I I've seen it. I've been trying to think of Audible one day.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I mean, I I like I personally heartily recommend it, and I think listeners of your podcast would like love it because he he writes about the ocean and about surfing and about like surf exploration, like go like crossing the world, going to all these super remote places to try to access unique places in nature in a way that is just phenomenal. Like I've literally never read prose about waves like. Hit like he like he writes. And I would also say that it is not you do not need to be interested in surfing to love the book because it is very, yeah, it's very much written for someone who's interested in the outdoors, who's interested in nature, and who's interested in like how that helps you grow, right? And it's just it's really beautiful. It's it's a yeah, really phenomenal story. And I'd say that like on the flip side, if you if you're if you listen to this conversation and something that resonates with you is like the like a small, concise, punchy, like piece of fiction that has some like weird and interesting, sort of speculative or fantastical elements that really make you think and take you to places maybe you weren't expecting. Yeah. There's a beautiful book called Puranesi by Susanna Clark. And it's just this, yeah, like I didn't really know what to expect going in, and I'm sort of glad I didn't know anything about it. It it totally just like won me over right away and took me on a wild ride. So I'd say that those would be like two different sides of the coin. Like if you're enjoying this conversation, that like those would be really cool books to check out.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Your your book and source hold is a lot different from your other books, correct? That you you're mostly sci-fi. This is kind of sci-fi, but more outdoorsy and it can interpret in so many ways in my eyes, you know, my weird eyes. If not sci-fi, what other genre do you prefer or write?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, write or uh okay, okay. As a reader, I read like almost everything. Like I'm I I don't like stick to genres as a reader. I read really across the board. As a writer, yes, like most of my books are like near future science fiction. So they're not science fiction in the sense of like space, like Star Wars, yeah, like spaceships. They're more science fiction in the sense of like Jurassic Park, right? Like, like this, like, oh, what if what if the world was different in this specific way? And so I that that's that's like my other books are much more like that. What's sort of interesting is that genre is is super important, right? Like genre tells us what to expect from a story, and so you know, like if you pick up a book with the dragon on the cover, you're probably gonna expect, you know, a a boy in a small town who you know grows into his power and saves the world from evil with his ragtack goofy friends. And if you read a murder mystery, you're gonna expect that you're gonna find out who did it, right? By the end. And so, like, I and like as a reader, I totally I mean, obviously, like I pay attention to genre, but what's weird as a writer, the like the I don't write like the like when I approach, like I said, like the thing that leads me into a book is I have an idea for a story that I want to exist in the world, yeah. And so I never start with genre. So to me, as a writer, when I think about genre, it's like a carpenter who has like would add different tools to his toolbox depending on the project he's working on, right? So it's like, you know, you're building a house that's gonna be different than building a desk. And and so for me, I actually like Insourced Wild is similar to my other novels in that I use a lot of different tools from different genres in every book I write. So like Insourced has a bunch of fantasy elements in it, but it is very different from Harry Potter or like The Lord of the Rings, right? Yeah, like it has some sci-fi elements in it, but it's very different from both Jurassic Park and Star Wars. Like it's neither of those things. And it has some thriller elements in it because it's like fast-paced and there are twists and things like that. Yeah, but like it's certainly not like a, you know, like a like the uh, you know, a thriller that you would like watch on HBO that's about like someone being kidnapped and murdered or something like that. And so what that means ultimately as an author is that my books are very hard to market because it's hard to describe them, right? You're like, well, is it a fantasy story or what? Uh but because I enjoy that so much as a reader, I think that like the readers who love my books, even though they're hard to market, really love them for that reason, right? They are they sort of like surprise you and use these different tools in in ways you might not expect.
SPEAKER_00:So my descriptions, my three like thought-out ways of how this book went is not too far off. No, I think you're totally on point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, good, good, good, yeah, no, and and like being perfectly honest, it's a struggle for me whenever I like have a book, I've written the book, and now I'm like, how do I describe this book to people? Like, that's one of the hardest parts is like like writing the the back cover copy, you know, like the or like the Amazon description. It's like, oh my god, where do I even start?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and the more I I read the book, right? And and I was seeing like what other books you wrote, you wrote 12 other novels and everything else. One interesting thing that really I'm gonna pick up. Uh hopefully you sign it if I if if I purchase a book on your website, will you sign it? Yes, will others if they purchase on your website, will you sign it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. So actually, this is sort of fun. So this is a new thing for me. So okay, one thing like I've I've always really enjoyed like getting signed copies from authors I love, but it's sort of hard to do it, right? It's like if if they're not if they don't happen to be doing an event in your city that you can attend, like how do you even get that? And so earlier this year, I decided that in addition to like distributing my books through the normal channels, like you can order them on Amazon or your local bookstore or get them at the library or whatever, that in addition to that, I was gonna start selling them directly through my website. Where and and so I started doing that just this year. And and whenever if you buy it directly from me, I literally like next to where we're recording, I have I have like a label, a printer label printer and like you know, packaging, like I hold a small amount of inventory of the books. And I before we started recording, literally just walked the dog to drop off a bunch of signed copies at the the post office to send out to readers. So yeah, so it's it's a funny, really small, delightful like operation. So if you want to go direct, yeah, if you if you order any of my books off my website, I will personally sign and send them to you.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. The the reason why I ask is because you the one that caught my interest was the AI book that you and because uh you know the AI is a huge thing on social media, and you you can make videos on AI, realistic videos, maybe their hands or something distorted, but it's kind of real. So before I purchase that, I just want to ask your question is AI good or bad? Are there more pros than cons? Or what's your thought on it before I pick up that book?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay, so I really think that it is extraordinary what computers what we've made computers have been able to do, right? Like I was just talking, uh my dad was over for dinner the other night, and he was born in 1944 in Amsterdam, so like in Nazi-occupied Holland. And and he didn't he never rode in a car or a plane or like spoke on a telephone, or like basically any things that we would consider like table stakes modern technology, he didn't experience until he was like 12 years old when they like emigrated to the US. And and like when I think about like the arc and like now he's using Chat GPT, right? You know, it's like it's like a pretty wild like arc that we've been on as a as a culture. And I think it's absolutely astonishing and super surprising that like it turns out computers can can can work with language, can can actually like work with language in the way that these new models do. Like, and not just not just English, but like also like all of like all kinds of hidden patterns. That's how the the the visual ones work. So I think it's like extraordinary. I think it's super useful. And I also think that like any new technology, it just it's a huge chaos factor in society, right? So like I I write novels when the printing press was first introduced, it totally was a massive chaos factor in society. It caused the hundred years' war, like there are so many things that came out of the printing press that like were completely unexpected to anyone at the time, very much including those in power, very much including like the large institutions, and like it had a lot of very negative consequences, in addition to a lot of really positive consequences, and and it took a long time to figure out the difference, right?
SPEAKER_00:So we're finding in the new age, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:So I think we are in one of those. You said you like to read history. I feel like we are living in one of those exciting times in history right now. Like that's always, you know, like that that's a dangerous place to be, but it's also like a quite exciting place to be. Okay. And so, yeah, like the thing that that I try to think about as a writer when it comes to new AI tools is not like like there's a lot of discussion right now, and I think it's very worthy discussion, about basically how these tools can substitute for things people currently do, right? And like, and the social repercussions of that. So that's all like will jot will you lose jobs because like it's doing the tasks that those jobs are hired to do, etc. Yeah. But the thing I try to think about as a writer is, and like maybe this applies to you as a podcaster as well, I don't know, is like, okay, like that's one angle, but like another angle is what is possible with these tools that could never have been possible before. Yeah, and that's actually, I find a much more interesting place to try to like experiment. And like I feel like the same was true with the printing press, right? Like it took a couple hundred years for like novels to really become a thing after the printing press was popularized, and like now they've found their form. And the same is true for movies. Like when film was first developed, like it took a while, it took a couple decades for like the modern feature film that's like two hours with this tight story, you know, just like what we think of as a movie, it took a while for that to like come into being. And so I feel like right now there's a lot of like experimentation and dumb stuff being done and cool stuff being done, and you know, we'll sort of see how it plays out. But if you're like experimenting with this tools, that's what I would try to focus on is like how can you try to like make things that wouldn't otherwise exist?
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. We're we're getting close to time, so I appreciate you entertaining that. How long how soon will we have to wait or how long for your next book?
SPEAKER_01:Oh god, I don't know yet. I haven't started writing it. Okay, so yeah, so I I have a few ideas and I always sort of let them percolate a little bit and then start start sort of pushing them and start start writing. And so I I I'm not I I don't know. So I you know, I'd say that I've been on a cadence of roughly a book every year or two, and I hope that the next one will be somewhere in that range, but not knowing what it is yet, I can't make any hard promises. Is writer's writer's block real or a myth? I think it's a myth, honestly. Like it that's not that the process can't be hard, but you know, like does a heart surgeon have surgeon's block? Like, no, you might they she might have a bad day, but she doesn't have surgeon's block. And frankly, I feel the same thing is true. That doesn't mean that like you're you always feel inspired, but one thing that I found as a not as a novelist is that like maybe if you're a poet, you can only write when you're inspired, and that works for you because you have this moment of clarity and you just spend all that energy in one poem. But writing a novel is a marathon, not a sprint. And if I waited to write until I felt inspired, you know, I wouldn't have released one novel, let alone 12. And so the thing that always surprises me is when I write a manuscript and I go back and read it for the first time, read that rough draft over for the first time, I'm always shocked because the feeling of inspiration seems to have almost nothing to do with the quality of the output. That like I can be quite uninspired, maybe feel uninspired as I was writing a certain chapter, and that might be the best chapter in the book. And so it's it's yeah, I don't know. I I there's some weird psychology at work there that I don't fully understand, but but I think that like if you're listening to this podcast and you're a writer and you're experiencing what you're currently thinking of as writer's block, just write the write the thing that is at the front of your mind. Like I think some writers get in their own way by holding their best ideas for later. And I find that it's a lot more helpful to just spend all your best ideas right away because then they breed new ones, and that'll help you get through that block.
SPEAKER_00:Besides picking up your two-year-old, what's next for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, after I pick up, well, I mean, we're gonna go to the beach, but beyond that, uh uh Mountain Trek's, yeah. So we we yeah, we have a uh another mountain trip planned for next year. We have another a big surf trip planned for the spring that I'm really excited about. One thing I do every year, there's a beautiful, I don't know if you've been to Point Reyes National Seashore, but it's just north of San Francisco. And you know, given your your, I'm sure your audience just loves the outdoors, I think it's actually like really underrated. You know, everyone coming to Northern California goes to Yosemite, obviously, and they might go to Lake Tahoe and like those areas. They might do the lost coast, right? But point raise is this like just a spectacular, spectacular bit of wilderness that is like basically an hour and a half drive from San Francisco, and there are elk, there are incredible, like incredible mountains, incredible views, incredible coastline. And every November I host a we there's a lodge there. It used to be like a hostel. It's the only place you can stay in the park if you're not camping. And I rent it out every November, and we do like a Friendsgiving with like 30 or 40 friends, family, you know, like a groups of families, and we all cook together and hike together and just enjoy the outdoors together. And it's just a really beautiful, beautiful thing. So I'm very excited for that. And I also think that, like, yeah, anyone listening, if you happen to be around San Francisco, take a day, go check out your point rates.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I know, I know you need to go. Man, there's a lot more that I I I want to like pick up your brain, you know, you the Himalaya kingdom that you explored, you you know, that's uh that and then you know, the longest trail in Spain. I wanted I wanted to hear about that, but it's not the time or place. But if and when you want to come back on, please, Elliot, please let let me know. I'll I'll put you on because you're quite the trackser track trekker and explorer and the novelist. So yeah, I know you have to go. So, Elliot, I appreciate your time, the book, and and it's truly honored to have you on, man. The podcast, I it really means a lot. And basically, you know, I've not been in a podcast block, but I've been putting them out when I can, you you know, and so I appreciate you saying yes and being episode 260. So appreciate your time, Elliot. And appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:So you I really I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for all the thoughtful questions. I'm really moved to to hear that you enjoyed the story. And yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to round two. We can we can rec reconnect sometime too. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:All right. All right. Until next time. Until next time.