Miles & Mountains
Join Nick, a social worker and coach by day, as he unravels the inspiring stories of athletes and the public, uncovering the motivations behind their actions, from conquering mountains to participating in ultra-endurance races and competing in rodeos. Get ready for heartwarming tales of community support, acts of kindness, and the revelation that everyone has a deeper story to tell. Whether it's running, climbing, or participating in rodeos, these stories will inspire and uplift. #Running, #Climbing, #EverydayAthletes, #Rodeo
Miles & Mountains
The Systems That Failed?
What drives a father to commit the unthinkable? When Travis Decker allegedly killed his three young daughters and disappeared into the wilderness, media coverage quickly blamed "system failures" – but is that the whole story?
Three veterans dive deep into this heartbreaking case, challenging simplified narratives that potentially harm the veteran community. They untangle the critical distinction between PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder, explaining why conflating these conditions does a disservice to everyone struggling with mental health. With raw honesty, they share personal experiences navigating VA healthcare, revealing both its flaws and its improvements over the years.
The conversation takes an unflinching look at personal responsibility in mental health treatment. While acknowledging systemic challenges, they push back against the notion that diagnoses predetermine violent behavior or that "the system" bears all responsibility when individuals choose not to engage with available resources. Their firsthand experiences illuminate the reality that seeking help requires persistence but remains possible.
Most powerfully, these veterans confront the harmful stereotype that portrays all former service members as damaged "ticking time bombs." This narrative not only stigmatizes the veteran community but obscures the complex human factors behind tragedies like the Decker case. Their perspective reminds us that mental health exists at the intersection of systems, circumstances, and individual choices.
Whether you're a veteran, someone supporting a veteran, or anyone interested in the complexities of mental healthcare, this episode offers valuable insights into how we might better support those struggling while maintaining the nuance these difficult conversations demand. Reach out if you're struggling – these veterans remind us that connection saves lives.
Instagram:
@dxm_hb
https://www.instagram.com/dxm_hb?igsh=MTBudWlnbTNyajh1Yw==
@scuttbuttpod
https://www.instagram.com/scuttbuttpod?igsh=cjh1cWR0OGU4MXYz
Shoutout to :
Dom
The Scuttlebutt Podcast
Hermes and Morphius
Military Veterans
Ag-Gear Store
Use Code: Milesmountains
For 15% Off
Alter Ego Ambassador: https://alteregorunning.com/
Miles & Mountains Promo Code: Milesmountainsyr3
Raising Awareness:
Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women (MMIW)
Mental Health
so scuttlebutt podcast that's hermes, that's morpheus and then this new guy, dom dom. Nice to meet you nice to see you on here. I wanted you to be on a long time ago, just yourself, because scuttlebutt introduced and dude you rock. You're a scholar from across the atlantic, the uk right, do you guys say, mate?
Speaker 3:or is that australia no, we say mate, we say we say mate okay, well, you guys also use this.
Speaker 1:Okay, you guys fluently use the c-u-n-t word too, and that that's that. That's more harsher than the mate in my my opinion yeah, it's not.
Speaker 3:It's not something you typically would call somebody if you were friends with them, like it's more of an exclamation of annoyance than anything else, although actually, no, to be fair, it can be quite a friendly thing, all right I love this guy.
Speaker 2:I'm over here, this, this, this guy Dom over here, this guy is awesome.
Speaker 3:You big, lovable cunt Exactly Sick cunt. You Sick cunt. A well executed cunt Is like peak comedy Music to the ears.
Speaker 2:We're off to a strange start already, boys.
Speaker 1:So one thing I gotta make it clear the listeners this is Dom, he's from UK, his accent is thick, so please beware.
Speaker 2:But the guy is a scholar.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's, it's, it's going to, it's going to be tough. People are going to be like, yeah, but then they're going to hear the CU and T word, you know and they're like oh yeah, you know yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy's okay, but you've been published four times right that is a um okay.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a story behind that all right go for it, dom, let's, let's.
Speaker 1:I just want to introduce you because a lot of people know the scuttlebutt yeah, I'm just a I'm just a heavily involved outside observer.
Speaker 3:That's what I am. Um, but the, the four times published thing on my on my profile is literally just, uh, referring to the fact that when I was in school they published me in a few books, um, just with little short stories I wrote for competitions and things. Unfortunately I'm not a proper published author. I'd love to be one day, but, um, that's why I had in the, that's why I hadn't in the bio for a while like four-time published author, technically so yeah, we'll get.
Speaker 1:We'll get that one day we'll get that we'll get that one day.
Speaker 1:We'll get that one day oh, okay, all right, but I ask you guys because, man, I tell you what I'm, that uh, that pool Patreon party of your guys's Twitter and man, it's just, it was like, oh God, it's blown up every two minutes for you know, certain times of day, and I'm like gosh, I have to quiet this down because I'm at work, I'm like, and so just recently I was just like, okay, I'm going to, I think it's time, I'm going to ask the boys and did full send again and you guys were like I'll be there. But so I thank you guys. Hermes Morpheus, you're finally on.
Speaker 4:Hey, here we are. You asked for me by name. I show up. That's what I told my wife. Normally I would be like I can this weekend, but when I, when you ask by name, like how are you gonna say no?
Speaker 2:yeah, you make it, and when it's nick nonetheless, you know exactly, with the big old stick we will show up for him well, morpheus, I mean hermes.
Speaker 1:How many times I've asked that guy to get on and he's like oh, I'm busy, oh blah, blah now he's here, so again I got my, he's busy he's busy talking to me
Speaker 3:usually I know, I know, he's got, he's got, he's got more important things yeah, yeah, I'm starting you've outshined hermes, so that's a good thing in my book.
Speaker 1:But hermes, that's my bud my bud hermes, you're my buddy, you know I can talk that shit I can't wait to come get a beer with you, bro.
Speaker 2:But uh, yeah, it's not that hard to outshine me more if it's okay especially with your chaotic energy.
Speaker 4:I don't know about that okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm doing this story because it hits a lot. It's a lot on, well, the story of travis decker. Don't really want to put him out there, don't really want to state what he did. A lot of people in the world know what he, knows what he did. But one of the things I want to emphasize on in this episode is, uh, which is a lot different than any other episode I've done was basically the systems. Either you're listening to people, uh, blaming the court, the judge, then the mental health, you know the va system or the military system, because apparently the dude was still in the military.
Speaker 4:He just went awol or didn't show up and he was gonna get reprimanded yeah, yeah yeah, he was yeah, at the time he was in the process of getting separated out for not showing up to drills correct.
Speaker 1:So that is that a wall, is that malingering?
Speaker 3:is that both or what I think it'd be okay wait, um, before we continue, you're gonna have to uh explain a few of these terms to me, because I'm not entirely familiar with the us military and and terminology.
Speaker 1:So we got you dumb, okay, so so he was supposed to show up for his duty that weekend, or multiple weekends, and he did not show up. The higher-ups were in the middle or in the process, which it takes probably six months to a year to get in the National Guard. Since it's a weekend warrior thing Don't hate me guys, that's just how it is, Listeners, that is. And basically he was under. He was going to be not court-martialed but basically reprimanded for lack of duties and lack of showing up. So AWOL it'sOL, what is it Away?
Speaker 2:without leave.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absent yeah absent away without leave. Yes, and then malingering is just somebody that's in and around just collecting a paycheck and doing whatever they want.
Speaker 4:Yeah, malingering is like faking a medical condition or something Like trying to say like oh, like you know. I broke my arm and I can't do work even though you didn't actually break your arms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, or you broke your arm and it was like 10 years ago and you, oh I, have residual pain and, like you said, I can't do there's always an excuse.
Speaker 3:That's a long, long arm break, fucking 10 years.
Speaker 4:It's always like an excuse, basically the simple version is like I'm sick, I need to go home for the day, and then you can see him at the bar. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're like wait a minute. Yes, yes, yes, does that explain Dom In layman's terms.
Speaker 3:Yes, it does. I'm just trying to get layman's terms Okay, okay. I get that. You said God as well, just do you mean national guard?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay, all right. And to delineate that, like nick was saying with uh, weekend warriors is the national guard? Is yes, they're basically civilians and every like two weeks out of the year, or every a month out of the year, whatever their drill regiment is, um, every so often they have to show up and put the uniform on and do whatever it is that they're drilling for, unlike the active duty that it's doing that every day and it's kind of like the opposite two weeks.
Speaker 4:It's kind of like, uh, the national guard's, kind of like the reserves, except they get activated by their individual state to deal with like state things rather than like the reserve which is activated by like the president to go do stuff. The national guard is like if a tornado hits really bad somewhere, they send the national guard to help out. You know? I mean, so their army, like it is the army, but it's like, it's kind of like a offset of the reserves, yeah, yeah speaking of like, because we have a.
Speaker 3:We have a similar thing here, like we have the army reserves here who get called in when sort of national disasters happen. So, okay, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah okay I'm with you.
Speaker 4:It's like the state militias, basically, if that makes sense they're showing up to LA right now for those riots. I knew Hermes was going to say that dude, I was reading about that second amendment guy, here we go well, lately third amendment is like really really trending now oh yeah, I wonder why that is abolish the third if they're cold, the Third If they're cold if you're cold, they're cold. Let them inside.
Speaker 3:Is that the no soldiers being courted in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Morpheus and Theron will not let it go.
Speaker 4:They will not let this die. Joke about abolishing the Third Amendment.
Speaker 1:Right 1776, that's when they had all that stuff, alright. So the coward Travis Decker right, who allegedly zip, tied his three baby girls and suffocated them to.
Speaker 4:Gosh, I say allegedly because don't know.
Speaker 1:But, dude, it's like the believed cause of death is asphyxiation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And before they found the baby girls, mom said he had it in his heart that he would never hurt the girls. That's before they found them. You know past, but I see those girls and I have three girls myself and I'm just like fucking coward man who would do something like that.
Speaker 4:Well, they were what too? It was like 9, 8, and 5 or something. Yeah, 9, 8, and 5.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 9, 8, 5. Beautiful little girls Took after their mother, obviously, but with that, there's a lot of you know just things said on social media, whether it's you know systems and courts, va, not va. Just I would say what military mental health? Yeah, he, there's claims of him having ptsd, but when you look more into it, he had bpd, which is borderline personality disorder, which I work with a lot of people that have that, and I tell you what PTSD over anything does not make you want to kill somebody, dude. I'm just saying so, if I stand corrected and understand my diagnosis borderline personality disorder. They said that he was very narcissistic. That is a true underlying you know what is it.
Speaker 4:I noticed the reports also don't say what type of borderline personality disorder he was diagnosed with either. It doesn't say if it was like type 1 or 2, which makes a difference.
Speaker 1:Well, narcissistic, would that be type one?
Speaker 3:well that narcissistic yeah, bipolar one and two have different diagnostic criteria, but bpd doesn't have two separate criteria. Narcissistic narcissism is not necessarily a trait of bpd. It can be a trait of bpd, but it's not. It's not one that comes under the list of diagnostic criteria. If he had narcissistic traits, he would have come under narcissistic personality disorder, which is quite a different thing. Um, but bpd is, I think.
Speaker 3:I think I've researched a lot about. I did a little university course on like mental health and madness and things like that and BPD is a. Well, it's a personality disorder, right? So it's a, it's a. It's a. It's a disorder which sort of is characterized by radical confusion of identity, um, suicidal intentions and ideation, and a extreme emotional, um, extreme emotional outbursts as well, and also an incredibly pronounced fear of abandonment, which manifests itself in many different ways. So if he was suffering from bpd, there there's a, there's a certain case to be made for it. A lot of people who have BPD often engage in violent and reckless activity, they engage in substance abuse, they're frequently homeless and it's actually a really difficult thing to deal with because it's such a complicated, complicated mental health disorder that we don't actually know much about, because the people who suffer from bbd. They they don't often.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, they often kill themselves, that they often because they because, because they feel so bad, because their brain is so not broken, but their brain is disordered. They, yeah, I think it's one of the. It's one of the only DSM-5 mental health recognized conditions which has suicide as a symptom, not just a complication.
Speaker 4:Are you just regurgitating this right now? That was real impressive.
Speaker 1:Right, that's what I said, damn Dom.
Speaker 4:Are you reading something or are you just regurgitating that that?
Speaker 3:was a lot. No, no, that's, that's regurgitative um, that is. I learned that, uh, I think it's. I've got family members who have bpd um and it's, it's a. It's quite a quite a terrible thing to observe um and also they have, they're very prone to intense anger as well, intense angry outbursts, and they often have. Imagine a toddler having a temper tantrum. Now, imagine that in a 25 year old that's someone who suffers from BPD has frequent anger outbursts. It's a very complicated mental disorder it would surprise me.
Speaker 1:BPD also is more into females than males too yes, it is, it's, very difficult to diagnose, diagnose males, but I tell you what man working with people who have bpd, uh, it's all about them, them, them, them. And this is a pure example of I, I think, think, what we're dealing with and what we're going to talk about, dude. So, um, I appreciate that, dom, dude, I swear. Yeah, do you have a dsm with you right now?
Speaker 3:that's a lot no, no, I I've read. I've read some of the dsm I had to. I had to read a little bit for my one of my university courses, but uh, I, I didn't. I didn't purchase a dsm, although maybe I should, because it's probably a bit of, you know, a bit of low reading before better for exactly, you know some light reading.
Speaker 2:As you were going through it, I was like damn you're you're making. I need to go grab mine and be like checking all the like uh, what, how much, how much did I forget about this? He just has this off the dome. Let me go grab this real quick right.
Speaker 1:So narcissism is all about them too. So you can put that what I was saying before. You can put him under BPD. Narcissism like more than the PTSD, because PTSD man, a lot of people claim PTSD but I don't think they really, really, really understand it. Do you know that, dom? Do you know the criteria? Do you know the definition?
Speaker 3:Post-traumatic stress disorder. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but do you have the dates?
Speaker 1:like you did on BPD, Go for it.
Speaker 2:Donald, this is your day All of a sudden.
Speaker 3:Well, ptsd manifests itself in very different ways to BPD. Ptsd manifests itself in very different ways to BPD. Obviously, post-traumatic stress disorder is something that you get as a result of undergoing extreme traumatic experiences, which can involve trauma, responses to things that are associated with the traumatic experience flashbacks, night terrors, depression, isolation from family members. It's ironic because PTSD is not something I'm particularly familiar with compared to BPD, because PTSD is not something that has affected my family so much. I don't want to get too personal, but like yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, it's, it's obvious, it's a complex.
Speaker 3:Well, it's just like it's a complex mental disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, associated with like is it like fight or flight responses? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Sort of trauma, I mean there's a couple of breakdowns.
Speaker 2:If I want to step in on Dom's toes real quick here knowing the PTSD like criteria a little bit more when we were doing this for the show Morpheus on, you know like 22 a day and you know lowering suicidal ideations, things like that, um, the, the gray area, I guess, of it outside of like the actual DSM, uh, dsm diagnostic criteria is that?
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, is it the mental symptoms of those traumatic events, that criteria that uh put you in that criteria of like you know certain levels of PTSD. And then is it the actual physical transformation of the brain, like you were saying, dom, there, of the fight or flight. Are you always having the high blood pressure? Are you always having the constant? Yeah, that's stimulation, exactly, that's the. That's like the range that I saw for the, I saw for the DSM diagnostic portion, was you have the like. I don't remember if it was level one, but you have like the first side of it, which is the mental revisiting, the nightmares and that stuff from either one event or a couple re-exposures to these events. You have triggering events, things like that that could classify as PTSD. You know first stage and then the other side of the spectrum and then, of course, all those in between.
Speaker 3:However, I do know that what it doesn't do is make you kill your kids.
Speaker 1:Correct, Thank you.
Speaker 3:Dom, it's not that like if someone someone suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder often avoids any kind of dangerous activities or activities that would put others in harm's way, unless it's like a specific emotional trigger which, like, for example, someone could be if they've been attacked at some point. And could I, could I ask a?
Speaker 2:question to the group here for a second then, um, pausing it for, because I think we're getting down the like clinician route of like this is it's a black and white thing of this is what it is, and I and and part of like specifically like this situation is it kind of goes to show is like whether this guy and from the court documents that I saw, he was diagnosed a couple times with BPD and he also had PTSD from the VA as a diagnostic criteria.
Speaker 2:As a disability. Exactly he had been diagnosed. Yeah, exactly. And putting all that aside is maybe he had something else as well which is part of that. Like it's not just because you have PTSD Now you, you know you would avoid the situation, cause I know like confusion is a big thing with PTSD and I and again I have to refresh my BPD, but um, Remember the guy who was the name of the guy who wrote Damn the Valley.
Speaker 4:Remember in Fayetteville, North Carolina, William Yeske? One of the guys from that unit in North Carolina snapped and killed a bunch of people. Started clearing houses because he was having a weird flashback. Exactly. He shot himself in front of the cops.
Speaker 2:That's exactly where I was going to, Because mental illness is such a fucked up weird thing when our brains go haywire. Is that? I don't know I have to look for. You know, I didn't do a huge deep dive on Decker specifically, I just familiarized myself with the case so that we could talk about it.
Speaker 1:You know like yeah, but I wonder what, like what medication he was on you know, maybe he stopped, yeah, exactly, he stopped taking like he didn't do anything to follow up, or yeah, yeah and again yeah.
Speaker 2:if we're talking about the sounds like yeah, yeah, we're talking about the failures of systems or the non-failure, like if we're gonna get to the, the root of all of these things. I don't think we're going to today, but you know if we're gonna discuss this like I want to say well, I want to say you, you know, as as uh, as uh, not politely, but like as as well.
Speaker 2:If we want to discuss this well, I think it is worth saying is like all of these things are just so fucking. You know, it is such a fucked up mess that, um, yeah, I too many of the SSIs are to blame and, at the same time there's I mean nothing comes like there's no cookie cutter for anything.
Speaker 4:I mean like if you have like PTSD from like shooty times in the desert versus like I mean disclaimer, I have a PTSD, I have a PTSD diagnosis from a couple like near-death experiences from the ship, right, so like I'm not like fight or flight, I was getting shot at, but like certain things, certain things involving boats kind of freak me out. Still, you know what I mean. Like exactly exactly, I wake up. I wake up with dreams like I'm drowning from time to time. Like it's kind of like there's like the varying degrees and levels and like that's why, when I was reading into his thing, I was so curious to see like so his record was like he'd been at active duty for eight years.
Speaker 4:He spent five months in afghanistan and he was an infantryman that had gone to mountain survival school. Not talking to my wife she's like well, isn't that like a really intense school? And I was like kind of, but that's a school that like a lot of infantrymen go to. That's a school that a lot of like Marines go to. I know, like Corman, who I've been with the Marines, I went to it just because they were there. Like it's not like. It's not like Green Beret school. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Like it's like like a navy, nothing nothing I've seen really dives into what his other than he was an infantryman that had been in eight years and had one deployment to afghanistan.
Speaker 2:That's all I can find, uh-huh I'd be curious to see like did he have? Wasn't 75th that he uh went with? Isn't that one of the elite ranger schools?
Speaker 4:or ranger regiments or whatever. He wasn't a ranger guy because he was an infantryman like rangers, like it's own r's its own code after that.
Speaker 2:Like you become like an army ranger. He had his MOS of 70. Let me double check this.
Speaker 4:I think I don't know because I didn't see anything about Ranger, because that was my first thought too. I kind of assumed with what they were saying.
Speaker 2:I was like okay, he was probably like a Ranger or a Beret or something initial MOS and I thought his initial MOS was 75th. Let me, let me double check though.
Speaker 4:All of that is just a circle around, and say that I agree a lot with what Nick said, which is I think that the it's very quick to jump on the system bandwagon of, like the flaws system and in my own. So I haven't. My VA experience is very limited because I just submitted a claim last week, but I know in the military thank you I know in the military, welcome, thank you.
Speaker 4:I know in the military that, like, if you want help, like you can get it, man. I mean, like I know there's like varying circumstances and there's cases that are sometimes different than others. Like you know, some people have their like one-off experiences where it's bad, but like I've like been able to get a referral and maybe it's taken me a while and I had to do effort on my part, like for mental health, to get my diagnosis. Like, yeah, it took me like two months to get an appointment, but like I did, uh, I just had to. It was work on my part. I had to not just rely on tricare. I had to actually call clinics, ask them if they took tricare and if they did, okay, are you taking new patients? And if they did be like okay, then I had to call tricare and, hey, I need you to change my referral. Like it took effort but you can do it. It's not impossible and it's not like these aren't secrets of the insider trade, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with that. Uh, Morpheus is nuts.
Speaker 1:I would say that might be part of the problem. But yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, morpheus, because you know it's it just in the military itself. I remember when you were sick you go to sick call. You have to follow through. If you're not gonna get better. You don't get to go to sick call, correct? So a lot of people they went to sick call to get taken care of. Now when you're a civilian you can make all kinds of excuses but it's like dude, no one's gonna like say call to get out of formation and pt right, believe it or not, if you're gonna get something, if you're out of the army and you know you have these, you know these diagnosis, these injuries and you don't follow up your shit out of luck. You don't have people holding your hand.
Speaker 1:You know you have to do the work you do, you do, and there's plenty of times in and out of the va, even in the army, that dude, you have to advocate for yourself. You know, just recently, this cancer thing, you know I, I can say this system helped me but, dude, let me tell you, it fucking sucked because, dude, they wouldn't want to go further in treatment or or, um, yeah, in treatment, right then and there and unless I got a, uh, a mammogram yeah, some male. They were like get a mammogram, yes, I'm male. They were like get a mammogram. Va was saying no, it's not needed. So that was like six months fight. So I just let it go. I just did my diligence. I did what they were telling me to do, not the VA, but the people outside of the care and community care.
Speaker 4:You got the mammogram no.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't get the mamm man where, that's what I'm saying, and they had a fight, but um, but no, community care, you'll know, is is what it's the middleman for the va to get, if you're like in a rural area, um the the civilians or the veterans to get care outside, like not at the VA, but at the community hospital the nearest community hospital, and so you work with them a lot, but then you have to follow up with appointments at the VA, then appointments at the community or wherever they put you or wherever they agree to you know, have you, get looked at and it's just like the middleman, middleman, middleman.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you what, if I didn't do that, if I didn't follow their rules, dude, I've been paying out of my ass, you know. So it's expensive. It is just just being there for a whole day, on a Friday, to get treatment, treatment for four, four weeks, five weeks, you know my brand dude my wife's sister had cancer and uh she was like she said it's like the bill, that like the insurance company it was.
Speaker 4:It was like one session of chemo was like a lot yeah yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 1:so I was like man, I was. I was very thankful that I didn't jump the gun like real I'm so thankful. But it was me working with them and them like actually saying thank you for you know, not biting our heads off when I talked to them like dude, there's no need to do that, you're here to help me. You know. I'm just doing what I can to get you know, to get the help. You know, and I don't know man, being in the VA system for so long and seeing how a lot of this disgruntled vets treat the workers there and are, I guess, demanding to be treated, you know I've never been treated wrong in the VA and I've been in the VA in Tacoma, I've been in the VA in Portland, spokane, walla, walla, I go here. I've never been treated poorly, but the fact that I've seen so many incidents with vets treating workers poorly, it's through the roof, man and it is very sad.
Speaker 4:Oh, I believe it.
Speaker 1:It's very sad and it's just like no one owes you anything, nothing, you know, and I'm all. I sit there and you can tell the difference from the old timers to the new timers. New timers, man, we're quiet. You know we do our fighting behind closed doors. You know, we're very subtle, like seriously we are, and then, but the old timers man, they're disgruntled, they're like going to be in the trenches, man, fighting them, you know, out in the open.
Speaker 1:And I tell you what, man, there's a couple of times when I told an old, old guy that, uh, to sit his ass down, because, dude, he's making us look bad. He looked at me, he sat his ass down. But, dude, it's, it's, it's messed up, man, it's messed up. And I, I feel like this systems thing with whether it's the court I see that too because of my work as well, but mostly on the va side man, people saying, you know, veterans don't get the care that they need, they don't get the care that they, I think they don't get what they want, man, and so they just quit, they just they give up or they're they have other excuses. Man, that's what I feel.
Speaker 4:You look at like the VA like 20 years ago versus today. I mean, like there were a lot of problems with the VA for a long time but a lot of them like got really like because of all the backlash they got and people setting themselves on fire and shit, like they had some pretty solid revamps and like it's better, it's a lot better, like a lot of those systems are a lot better than they were 20, 30 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a little fun, I better.
Speaker 3:A lot of those systems are a lot better than they were 20, 30 years ago.
Speaker 1:That was a little fun.
Speaker 2:There was a case. Dom where someone was trying to get treatment. I don't remember exactly the year.
Speaker 1:I want to say like 18, 20.
Speaker 2:Phoenix, Arizona, I think I'd say 17, then 17, 18 time frame. He continued to get the runaround and was waiting for like hours, if not days, for like a callback or treatment or something, and then he ended up taking his life by setting himself, I want to say, in the it was in a waiting.
Speaker 4:It was in a waiting room. I thought it was in the waiting room. I think I was in Phoenix, all right. I think it was phoenix.
Speaker 2:Phoenix is like one of the big, like horror story va places and and that's a good one to bring up there morpheus just to like cherry on top of uh, nick and yours back and forth. There is I agree it is things get better, um, uh, when people you know point them out, and I think the overall system has gotten a lot better, but then, at the same time, there are things that get worse due to the quote-unquote good idea, fairies and changes, and at the same time, there's plenty of these horror stories that we're talking about. Right, I mean, it does happen, but it's a huge system, like I'm with Nick, where I give a lot of people benefit of doubt and you see it, with like these, I got to do this.
Speaker 4:I'm like dude, no, you don't, because there are those dickheads right, you get those guys that come in and they say you're going to do this for me. You're like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Exactly Versus. I feel like Nick would come in like, hey, this is what's going on, how can we help each other, kind of a thing here. I tell this to this second class that I that I often have to deal with and I'm like, dude, you know you, would you catch a lot more of those bees with honey than you would with the vinegar? Cause he'll just come up hey, I need this. I'm like, no, you don't, you're asking me for this. Okay, I will get to what you want me to do as soon as I'm done doing the thing that I am actually doing right now. So settle down, you know, shut the fuck up. So I don't know, you get both sides of it. I don't think it's one or the other, especially in this case. I wonder what happened with fucking Decker? Was he not getting seen? Again? I go back to what meds was he on? Was he not getting seen?
Speaker 4:Even his wife said in one of the articles. She said she didn't even know if he had been attempting treatment. He had gotten diagnosed but she didn't know if he had done anything with them.
Speaker 3:Like yeah, but at the same time he was living out his truck at the same. At the time I was living out this truck and yeah listen.
Speaker 2:but is that, is that necessarily someone who is suffering? Now again, I don't want to give this son of a bitch any benefit of the doubt here, but I want to involve the convert. I want to, yeah, evolve the conversation as far and, as you know, propped up as I possibly can here, and it's like if we the conversation as far and, as you know, propped up as I possibly can here, and it's like if we, if we're not doing the nuance portion of it, we're going to be doing a disservice. And is it really somebody who sufferings um, or is it always somebody who's suffering um job to look out for themselves? I, you know, part of me says yes, but also part of me is like, not everybody has that ability, Not everybody is able to, for one reason or another. You know going through, you know childhood trauma and you know preferences and personality types Like how, how can we address?
Speaker 1:things like that in situations like this, you know, yeah, you also have that choice too. That's true A hundred percent. If I want to get better, if I, if I want to get past my childhood trauma, my military trauma, you know, like which I have, and for the better I've. I struggled recently because, you know, I had to do, um, the graduation. Not in my wildest dream did I think I would speak and introduce, uh, future soldiers, you know. So I've come a long way.
Speaker 1:But for me to come this way, I knew I had to make a change. I knew I had to step up, not just for my wife of almost 20 years, but also my, my daughter, who's a pain in the ass. She's going to be 18. My other, my middle daughter, who's going to be a high school next year, and then my soon to be seventh, uh, seven year old. You know that this month you know what I mean it's just like for me to be where I'm at I had to work on it For me to walk. When I was getting out of the Army, I had to go to physical therapy. I went to physical therapy for six to eight years, man, nonstop. That was in the military and outside. I've had so many injuries.
Speaker 2:I love those guys.
Speaker 4:Physical therapy. What's that? Yeah, I love physical therapy. I see them too and I love them. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but to get where I'm at, what I'm saying is, dude, you have to be on your A game yourself, you know. So I feel it was a choice. If he didn't, or anybody else says that they didn't get the help, I don't blame the system whatsoever. Yes, there's some system flaws, of course, just like all of them. Like politics and bureaucratic bullshit, it's a big system, exactly, exactly, yeah, it is, but, dude, no one could hold your hand or exactly spank your butt to get the help that you need. You know, and you know, like people, mental, mental health and the homeless that's a huge subject too. Who, whose fault, who's at fault? A lot of them choose to be homeless because they don't want to be around people. What I'm saying is, dude people like the armchair warriors that are saying, oh, the system failed them, oh, we need to be better on mental health.
Speaker 1:The same guys yelling at the poor va receptionist at the front desk exactly, exactly, and it just it sucks because not only does it look bad of the systems but also other veterans who have similar issues, correct, but I'm not going to go and kill my three daughters that I have, you know what I mean, it's just.
Speaker 1:But so we're all like in this little cluster of like oh shit, you're a veteran, you have ptsd, I don't have bpd, don't fucking have that shit. I I major depressive anxiety, you know that kind of thing. But uh, it basically how this panned out. It makes it look like all veterans suffer, just like this guy, and that we're like a ticking time bomb, just like this guy. And that's how I see it, that's how I feel it, you know, and having three kids myself and then him doing his shit, it really it really hits man. It really hits because not if they're not blaming the va system or army military system in the court system and that right there that's a big system judges have to do their diligence, they have to do what is right for, not just for the ex but for the kids, you know.
Speaker 4:I think it's easy sometimes to blame. It's easier to blame the system as a whole than to just think like maybe this guy just had some fucked up problems and maybe he just like snapped and that it's really shitty and it sucks for that guy, but like that doesn't inherently mean that the system as a whole failed. Like I think that's an easy that's the easy answer, though, right, it's like oh, the system failed, the system failed.
Speaker 3:This person like why is it like that?
Speaker 3:though like go ahead don I was gonna say like the borderline personality disorder, if he did suffer from it. There's a disease which is onset from like early adulthood, right like it can be like 18 years old, so he could have had, probably he could have easily had these problems, you know, before he joined the military, or you know when he joined the military, right from the right, from the beginning. So this could have very easily been attributed to some sort of childhood traumas that he endured prior to any kind of military activity. So to blame this on veteran affairs seems a bit silly to me, and to blame things on the system just seems to be an all-encompassing, easy, easy way, easy way out. You know the big, infamous they, you know, yeah, the system what does?
Speaker 4:that like. What does that mean? Well, and like especially.
Speaker 3:I definitely agree with nick when he first said people are like they're glassing over the bpd and they're the system.
Speaker 4:What does that like? What does that mean? Well and like, especially, I definitely agree with nick when he first said people are like they're glassing over the, the bpd and they're just pointing out the ptsd, the ptsd and they're they're totally bypassing the other, like screaming elephant in the room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the bigger of the two, yeah yeah, well, also, I was gonna, um, I I wanted to like also touch with this whole rationalization thing, like I think that's what we're all doing here. When some fucked up thing happens, right, it's like, like you said, nick, you can't, you can't imagine hurting one of your, one of your girls, right, and somehow these, these fucked up people do throughout the world. Right, it's like it's this is not going as this is and it's like so all of us who are left after the fact. Yeah, like you said, dom, it's easy to point that finger, but I think, when we start this whole conversation, I think this whole like true crime fascination, the whole, when it hits home, why it hits home, why people want to, whether it's pointing to VAs or VA or military service as like culprits for this and that I think it's.
Speaker 2:We just don't want, I don't know, we don't want it to happen again, and so, however we can rationalize, people are immediately going to rationalize and then, as like we've talked about, dom, it's so much easier for a majority of people to rationalize the easiest, the lowest hanging fruit possible, which is, like you said, nick, like, oh, we've heard the VA has problems, so it must be. Oh, and we know PTSD is like a problem. Oh, it must be that you know what I mean. And I, and especially with like CNN or whatever, I haven't watched any of the local news or anything. I've just been going off of a couple online articles and some some grok, you know, sourced Twitter sources.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 4:I love it and grok.
Speaker 2:And that's how I caught up with this. But whatever the narrative is going out there, it sounds like it's going towards the typical lowest hanging fruit, right, nick? Yeah, oh yeah, the military.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's not surprising. People want easy answers.
Speaker 2:That's not surprising.
Speaker 3:People just want easy answers, because life is not really that clean cut.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you have an hour?
Speaker 1:so these conversations require more nuance yeah yeah, so so I I figured you know veteran myself in the system myself. I thought it's like you know, I need, I need to do my service with my guys, dom included. Shout out uk, shout out, yeah, shout out my mates over there, you know, and just say you know your cunts, the cunts I was waiting for you take yeah
Speaker 1:yeah, take another look please, because man, it like really hits home. It's right down the road from my house, you know, and it's just being an outdoorsman itself, you know. You can also look at the system that, uh, he was going back and forth, he was living in and out of camping areas and if he was using his veterans or military active military or active duty military bits in the, the ranger stations and stuff, you can stay there for 14 days pretty much for free or bare minimum like 20 bucks out of all those 14 days. They really want to do something. They're going to look at that and they're going to change that, because they hinted at him being at camping grounds, living at camping grounds for X amount, you know, max days or 14. It says that in every uh trailhead or every campground, uh area, right and uh, and if they want, they should look at that. You know what I mean and be like, okay, why are you staying here, 14 days Maybe?
Speaker 1:put it in a survey or a questionnaire, or you know, just change the way. Yeah, yeah, right, exactly, I mean you can look at that as a system failure, because 14 days can give you a lot of time to go I don't know, is that monday midnight or monday morning quarterbacking, though?
Speaker 2:because because like what? What will we, what would, what would it find? Like again, yeah, if he's staying 14 days, are you saying because he's prepping to do something crazy, or are you saying because he's homeless and therefore we shouldn't let him? What failure could anybody point to with ranger stations or anybody who's letting the veteran come in and out of their campground?
Speaker 1:I'm just saying, if you want to blame something, you can blame that too if you really look into it. But no one blames that. No one looks at the, the forest service. You know the, the, the benefits there you can stay 14 days max and then go right down the road, go 14 days max, you know, and they're kind of sounds like signs of him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to go camping right now. You hear me now here you talk about this. I'm like I kind of want to go camping for 14 you can do it, man probably not.
Speaker 4:Probably not in those woods until they find that guy, but you know yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but what is you know?
Speaker 1:it gives you enough time to search. What's that?
Speaker 2:no, no, I don't think anybody said anything enough time to think a little what delayed.
Speaker 4:I unfortunately do have to hop off here. We are catching a movie in 25 minutes, 5 minutes down the road and I gotta put pants on still.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you're doing it no, we're gonna see ballerina.
Speaker 1:It's that new it's the new John Wick movie with Anna de Armas. Female version.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's female John Wick with Anna de Armas no.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to see that.
Speaker 4:We're going to the cinema cafe, so I'm going for the food and the pictures.
Speaker 3:Well, get out of here I'm wasting time. It was great to be on. I love the conversations.
Speaker 2:Well, get out of here, I'm wasting time. Morpheus, it was great to be on.
Speaker 4:I love the conversations. I wish I could stay on longer.
Speaker 1:You're good, morpheus, appreciate you making it up. Yeah, of course. See you guys.
Speaker 3:See ya Morpheus.
Speaker 2:How do I, how do I, how do I, now that we got rid of him, that fucking cunt?
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, now that we got rid of him, that fucking cunt. Yeah, dude, you're. This is quietest I've ever heard. Yet I mean, I'm just taking it all in, no, but like seriously though, like if you really look into it, people don't pay attention. Dude, you can go there 14 days and, being military ex-mil veteran and everything else, in the state of Washington, I can stay in a campground for free, national parks and everything For free, yeah, yeah, and I can get in the national parks for free, and I can stay at the campground for a max of 14 days. And so, oregon, I stay in Oregon, dude, if I want to stay 14 days, it's going to be $20, man, it's like $2, $3 a day. That's, that's heaven. But that gives you enough time to look around and do whatever you want in and out of the woods. Man, and I tell you what, once you're away from the campground, once you're away from the, the, the highway, dude, anything goes, man, anything goes, and there's a lot of land in that area. You've probably been there, right, hermes?
Speaker 2:100. Yeah, and again I'm. Everything you described is like yeah, that sounds like a good thing yeah, so, um, I don't know, man, it it's.
Speaker 1:I wanted to discuss the systems. I think we did that, but I I really feel like, yeah, the lowest hanging fruit. I think that's where we're at, and me being a veteran and truly turning my life around and everything else and how this podcast is going as well. I'll be telling my story soon, but I feel like this was a good start to start um, portraying that, uh, telling my story and stuff like that. So I really do, um, appreciate you guys being on and everything else and discussing this because, um, it hurt a little dude, it hurt. Um, I I normally don't get into too many news stories, but when you hurt your loved ones and everything else and then people are saying this and that it's just like, man, fuck off, I had to speak. I had to speak because I can't do a post because it doesn't hit the same as a podcast or you know an episode like this, so I mean, it's an absolutely abhorrent crime to take place.
Speaker 3:It's like one of the worst things somebody can do is kill, that kill, well, kill any children, but kill your own children, um, yeah yeah you know it's like it's a, it's a. It's a hard thing that I sort of rationalizing any crime is pretty difficult, but trying to rationalize the murder of children is something that is quite beyond my own capabilities it's an affront to nature.
Speaker 2:It goes against every single bone in our body.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is as well, and if they were found and if they were killed in the way, yeah, it is well as well and like, and if they, if they were found and if they were killed in the way that it is described, with the suffocation and the zip tie binding, that's quite a that indicates some sort of premeditation as well. Yeah, you know, this wasn't just him impulsively shooting.
Speaker 3:This was like it's awful, it's a terrible thing to inflict on somebody else, especially your own kids, who haven't even reached the age of 10 yet right, hermes, you know about my brother-in-law, right did I tell you?
Speaker 2:about that. You might have to refresh my memory, man all right.
Speaker 1:So a few years back, right before covid hit like that, that, that winter, my uh brother in law went in the mountains in the eastern sierras in november. Which eastern sierras dude did it's? It's still freezing during the summer, right, certain places, certain parts, it's still wet. You're going to have black eyes. Well, november he decides to climb a mountain, comes up missing. We were hoping the best. Come out missing and deceased. They didn't find the body four days later, you know. And so if they're going to find a body, they they're gonna find a body, they're gonna find a body. But I feel him, I feel I don't think he's on the run dude, I think he found the perfect spot where he's not gonna be found and he's dead I was gonna ask like how all of this uh ends and I wonder yeah yeah, I I wonder if that was, that isn't and wasn't his goal the whole time, especially, like you said, don, with that premeditation for his girls.
Speaker 2:I wonder if this wasn't a whole, especially with I don't know, not especially with but with the diagnosis and the experience and him being in the area, knowing the area well enough, like you like you're talking about there, nick. Um, yeah, I mean, if you've ever been to to those like northern areas, like you said, I mean we used to joke sometimes, you know, you had a little bit too much to drink. You'd be like, yeah, I could see how bigfoot would hide out here. It's just so fucking dense and thick and like I could get you know and that's just like a joking example of how fucking wild and and dense and and yeah, an animal get to you out there. Um, you know now, especially now during the summer, and everything like I, I don't know, I I doubt that. Um, if that was his, if that was his um idea, then yeah, I doubt he's ever gonna be found or yeah, well, I mean, it has all.
Speaker 3:It has all the hallmarks of a murder suicide. If he hadn't have gathered, if he hadn't have searched you know, things like how to move to canada, jobs in canada, things like that I would have said, yes, classic murder, suicide thing. Because if he was living out of his truck and the truck has subsequently been abandoned, yeah, um, yeah, you know, that's like, that's a significant piece of evidence that they found.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do want to know the handprint, the bloody handprint on the truck tailgate. That's where I want to know more about that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't. I was going to say we don't know, at least not that I found the the complete, like coroner's report on his little girls, so and what he might be doing before and afterwards. Well, that's what I'm. I don't. The blood I mean it could be a lot of. It could be all kinds of fucking things, who knows. I think, uh, the end of the day, if we're gonna wrap this into fucked up shit that happened is, um, I honestly I hope he is dead. You know that's that's the end of it. Let's be done with this.
Speaker 1:And you know I don't know and in the grand scheme of things too, hermes I.
Speaker 2:I just want people to know, man, not everybody's like that, yeah exactly no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah not everyone's like that, and the system is not a failure well, if and if you're having problems with the system, or if you're having problems with, you know, mental health or whatever, like, reach out, I know nick will pick up, I know I will pick up, I know dom will pick up, having you know. You know, having been in all of these situations in terms of, like, I call dom, he picks up, he calls me, I pick up, it does not matter. Um, do it guys? You don't. Uh, yeah, I don't. Like you said, there is no excuse for getting this bad.
Speaker 2:I I hate when the article's like oh, there were so many signs and then somebody said, yeah, he's about to do an extreme. It's like, okay, all of those, all of those you know quote-unquote warning signs, again after the fact do nothing but prior. When you notice those things, like my buddy uh, I don't want to put him on blast, just had like a bad breakup, and immediately I was like dude, come down for this, you know Friday. And he's like, no, I don't know if I really want to hang out. I was like no, no, no, you're hanging out. And then it was me and another buddy and the same thing.
Speaker 3:The other buddy said he's like, yeah, what you know, like I mean a breakup was the thing that got me on the first episode of the scuttlebutt podcast. So the reason why I'm here, I mean. But then again, in my experience, um, reporting someone to the mental health service can do more harm than good. Um, it's happened before. I've done it before. Um, I talked about the story once on on the podcast and I was like um and the subsequent things that happened after that were quite, quite heavy to deal with. So, um, but if, if there is someone struggling that you know, encourage them to reach out and just sort of sit there and say, oh, I recognize the warning signs before everything happened.
Speaker 3:You know, it's like, I feel like if you, if you're a friend or someone close to this person who is clearly suffering from some sort of mental affliction, it's you have some sort of moral obligation to point them in the direction in which they can get help. Yeah, yeah. But then again, it's like there's people, there's people who suffer from these things and they find comfort in their mental affliction because it's all they ever know. And they, you know, it's people who don't want to get treatment for depression or anxiety, because they can't imagine a world in which they would live without depression or anxiety and they just stick to their ways. Or perhaps you know finding yeah, because depression is such an all-encompassing thing, they might not see a point to going getting help. They think that they're completely unfixable, which is also not the case. So if there is somebody struggling, isn't anyone anyone who's listening? If there is somebody who's struggling, yeah, encourage them to go and seek help, please.
Speaker 1:Reach out. Reach out too, don't be afraid. And being a mandated reporter man, I definitely understand the relationships, friendships. They turn sour. A little intent and why you did what you did. They come around and they, they end up appreciating you and appreciate what they uh, you know what, what we did and how we did it and how we went about it. At the moment they don't and won't, but at the end, at the end of the day or a couple weeks from from then, you know, after you call, then they come around.
Speaker 3:They do. These things take time. These things take time to deal with, you know. They take a long time to control, to fix, to deal with, to mend. But nothing in life which is good is going to come easy to you.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:I said said you got to do the work. Armies what's up. Why are you so quiet?
Speaker 2:dude, I'm just taking it in. I I'm not, uh, I don't have any alcohol in my system, so not as a interruptive and chatty it's a heavy.
Speaker 1:It's a heavy topic as well, but it's a very it's a very heavy topic yeah, and I appreciate you guys understanding that and and coming on, you know, I, I, yeah, I, I really being being veteran, being having issues being where from started from the bottom, now I'm here, I, I feel I'm here, you know, um, I really feel, uh, it's, it's, it's a negative. You know, anybody in the system, military vet, whatever, once something happens, dude, it's just like everybody thinks all veterans are like that, or all veterans, you know all military.
Speaker 2:It casts the wrong light, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. So I was like you know what I've had, my falls, but guess what I've worked on it. But you've got to be that person to want it, you know.
Speaker 2:Just like addiction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, dom. I appreciate your closing words, man, for real, thank you.
Speaker 3:I feel like there should be a more nuanced discussion about this as well. This veteran affairs thing and just everyone blaming people as like a blanket thing is just supremely unhelpful. Yeah, and shouldn't, it should not be allowed to happen. But you know, people, people have a chronic lacking of nuance. Not everybody, obviously, but a lot of people have a chronic lacking of nuance in their discussions and things and they, uh, they don't really, they don't really know how to have a conversation without talking. These black and white, um, these black and white statements you know, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, dom, when am I gonna have you all by myself anytime you like me no?
Speaker 3:anytime you like. Anytime you like, um, yeah, I'm a, I'm a free man most days well, I'm shocked that you came, man.
Speaker 1:You were like I'm on, okay sweet, all right, yeah yeah, no, no, I was.
Speaker 3:I was like you know what, like this, this has been my. This has been a strange year. This has been my year of just going on various different podcasts.
Speaker 1:It's been a lot of fun, so I've been like hopefully, you know, this continues on into the future yeah you should get your own man, you should start your own start on, though I don't know why I start on.
Speaker 3:I've got no idea, but no dude no, real, are you?
Speaker 1:kidding me, you're, you're, you're a smart young guy. I say young because you're way younger than I am, but still still, you're the scholar. Bro Intellect, you're sending me shit from foreign languages. You sent me that message.
Speaker 2:I had to go to.
Speaker 1:Google.
Speaker 4:Translate it was French. It was French.
Speaker 1:It was German. I would have known, because I was stationed over there and I did take two years of German. Yeah, yeah, but you, you did something French. I thought it was Spanish, but it was French. See you see, what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I'll do it in German next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And then you know, if there's a Dom, there's going to be. Have Hermes, just alone Hermes.
Speaker 2:Let's do it right now. I'm free today and I need to bust out some content.
Speaker 1:Let's do it Now. Where's the content on your? On yours, or are you?
Speaker 2:I don't care, I'll put, I'll start recording on my end or you will go on another. We'll do a back to back episode with you, nick. He's always talking smack and he's always like, oh, I can't get them on. I am always trying. I'm about to go for another mission for the rest of this month. So yeah, I mean I can't ever. We can't ever align the stars. We just have to make it happen. We have to put the work in. Nick Got to put the work in All right, no time like the present, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:Do you have a topic for yours right now?
Speaker 2:do you have a topic for yours right now on my um? I mean, I can figure it out. Let me find my notes, because I always have notes ready to go. I mean I was, uh, yeah, I always have a topic, dude, I can, and I, you know me, I can riff on whatever I can. I can just start, let me see what's my next. Uh, again, no time like the present. We could do whatever we want. I don't care if Dom's free and still chatting, we can do it now. Like I said, I can start recording for my end here.
Speaker 3:I'm still free if you two just want to do an episode, just you two, because I feel like this is a special occasion.
Speaker 1:If there's Hermes, there's Dom, there's Dom, there's Hermes alright, alright, you know what I can stick around seems, it seems like it.
Speaker 2:I have my notes here. Here we go.
Speaker 1:Dom, start your own podcast. Man, have us on Hermes dude. You know it's always a pleasure the guys, the people, the listeners. I know I have been on for a bit, but you guys know Scuttlebutt. If you guys want to hear some riffraff, some opinionated fools and some C-U-N-T's, you go to Scuttlebutt. But they're good guys.
Speaker 3:They're great guys. They intellect themselves. You can say it, you can say it, you can say it.
Speaker 1:Oh, the opinionated cunts.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, there you go, there you go.
Speaker 1:Is that better, Dom?
Speaker 3:I hate that. Perfect you've got. You've passed that. You passed the citizenship test.
Speaker 1:You can move here now thanks mate, thanks uh, so uh, until next time, guys. Thank you see. On the flip side, hermy send me an?
Speaker 2:uh an invite, all right yeah, we'll just do it here, man, we, man, I'm pulling out everything that we're talking about. We already have Zoom open. Why open another one? I'm just going to, like I said I've got, I have my device up here, no worries, I'm going to record from here exactly as we are, and we'll just go from there.
Speaker 1:That's how we do End meeting for all.
Speaker 2:You just got to end the recording. You don't have to end the meeting. We'll see you next time.